The Science of Scams

Today we are discussing some of the psychological reasons behind why we are all prone to getting scammed! 

For the show we answered three main questions: 
Why do scams work?
What is the psychology behind scams? And,
Who is prone to falling for scams?

During the episode we explain how our brain gets hijacked by a good story which causes us to lose our ability to think critically and rationally.

Thank you so much for tuning in, we hope you enjoy the episode and please check out our Patreon channel where we have a lot more content, as well as subscriber only episodes of the show. 

If you enjoy the podcast, I would kindly ask that you leave us a review and more importantly, please share it with a friend. Thank you for your time and don’t forget that Training Changes Behavior!

Transcript

Brian Marren: 0:06

Hello everyone and welcome to this week's episode of the Human Behavior Podcast. Today, we are discussing some of the psychological reasons behind why we are all prone to getting scammed. For the show, we answer three main questions why do scams work, what is the psychology behind scams and who is prone to falling for scams? During the episode, we explain how our brain gets hijacked by a good story, which causes us to lose our ability to think critically and rationally. Thank you so much for tuning in. We hope you enjoyed the episode and please check out our Patreon channel, where we have a lot more content as well as subscriber-only episodes of the show. If you enjoyed the podcast, I would kindly ask you to leave us a review and, more importantly, please share it with a friend. Thank you for your time and don't forget that training changes behavior. All right, greg, we'll go ahead and get started.

Brian Marren: 0:54

So good morning to you and hello to everyone who's tuning in to the Human Behavior Podcast. We appreciate all of you and for today, greg, we're going to be talking about the science of scams and sort of why scams work, and we'll get into fine what actual scam is, but I typically use that term sort of loosely as a point, meaning just anything where someone's trying to get over on you in some way. It could be something minor, something significant or major, but we kind of classify it, or I put it as a scam. And so there's a lot behind it, because if you're listening to this episode or watching it, you've either fallen for a scam at some point in your life, likely or are prone to fall for a scam. It's something you can't really help, meaning they really do affect everyone, and so some of the things I want to kind of get into is you know why do scams work? You know what's the actual sort of psychology behind them? Who can fall for scams? Are some people more susceptible? That kind of thing, because it's a great way to understand actually, a lot of the concepts we talk about when it comes to perception and cognition and fundamental attribution errors and confirmation bias and all those things.

Brian Marren: 2:18

It's such a great way to look at all of those is how we can fall into it, and it's always easy to point and laugh or something. You know what I mean. You can say, wow, how would someone do that? But you know, just like when we're talking about I don't know anything, I go, I try to put myself in that person's shoes and say you know how would I have fallen into that? What? What could I have gotten wrong? And so some some are very complex and highly organized and some are just, you know, like I would say, the shotgun approach, where people are just sending rounds and buckshot all over the. Or the belt-fed machine gun approach, where they're just well, if I put enough rounds down on there, I'm going to hit a target eventually. So they vary and we'll jump into all those. But I know you wanted to kind of start off with a great story for one.

Greg Williams: 3:04

Yeah, and just before we throw that story out there, I want to make sure that everybody that listens to us understands that we normally preface things by saying you can see danger or opportunity before it occurs. So recently our good friend Dan sent me a message where I had used the difference between life and death. Making this observation could be the difference between life and death, making this observation could be the difference between life and death. And his answer was you know, that's a little strong because it's danger opportunity. Yeah, it's left a bang. It's danger or opportunity, but this article will give you the example that it is life or death, that people can die when a scam goes off the deep end.

Greg Williams: 3:40

Brian, and listen this could happen to any of us or any of our parents. So this discussion stems from an incident on March 25th of this year and it occurred in South Charleston, ohio. And South Charleston is a small village in Clark County, ohio, maybe 1,700 people live there. So you got William Brock, an 81-year-old Ohio man, and he's been charged in the fatal shooting of Lothita Hall, a 61-year-old Uber driver. And Brock believed that Hall, the Uber driver, was working with the scammer. So Brock tells investigators that he shot Lolita outside his home on March 25th because he thought she was working with a man who had called him numerous times pretending to be an officer of the Clark County Court, and that person was actually a scammer. Who tells Brock that one of his family members is in jail with a significant cash bond.

Greg Williams: 4:32

So the first calls were threatening enough. But then and remember this guy's 81, there's a lot to unpack there. Okay, a gift of time and distance, hint, hint. But the calls increased from I'm an officer of the court to hey, we have your family member hostage and this is a ransom demand and you pay or we're going to kill him. So the scammer who called Brock told Brock that an Uber driver's on the way to his South Charleston home and they're going to pick up the money. And guess what happens just a few minutes later? Okay, ms Hall, the Uber driver, who has no role in the scam whatsoever. She shows up and is immediately confronted and subsequently shot and killed by Brock. Immediately confronted and subsequently shot and killed by Brock. You have to set into motion this in your brain to understand why the felony murder rule is out there. The guy that put this entire sequence of events, started it moving, was not Brock and it certainly wasn't Ms Hall. This is a scammer that wanted money.

Brian Marren: 5:45

This is a scammer that wanted money. And guess what? The proximate cause of those deaths is? His lies, his subter um. In foreign countries that's when we travel the place too. They warned us like, hey, you might get a phone call in your hotel room saying you know, we've got so and so and you need to pay us. Um and and again.

Brian Marren: 5:54

This set into a chain of events. So and part of the reason why this story works so well and it's so powerful it's one he's an older gentleman, so it sometimes can be a little bit easier to scam someone like that, because they don't understand the technology, the complexity, or haven't heard of this stuff maybe before. So the victim that they chose, and then co-opting someone without them even knowing they're being co-opted with the Uber driver and getting them involved. So now that suddenly becomes real. So even if I'm on the phone and you're calling me saying yeah, I've got your family member and you need to pay, I could sit there and be like, okay, whatever, this is scam, this is BS. Now, all of a sudden, a car shows up there to collect the money. This just got real. I mean, it adds so much to the story. And then obviously you know this person. It's perfect. The Uber driver has obviously no idea what's going on here and didn't know any of this stuff is happening. So it's a powerful story. I put the link in the episode details for people to read and check out. But I wanted to start with that one because it's a great example of some of the newer things that people are seeing out there and doing, some of the newer things that people are seeing out there and doing, and it's a great example of how you, you, you can really one.

Brian Marren: 7:08

Like you said at the beginning, this scam could go from I'm trying to make a couple of bucks to someone ends up dead, which that person is responsible. In some way. They're liable for this crime. I think they already know who it is. I know that it's still early on, you can follow up, but they it's still early on, we can follow up, but they knew because they had to use their Uber account or something like that. So they're probably able to identify the person, but the idea is now someone's dead. This guy, brock, he's still going to go to jail, probably for something. I mean he killed someone.

Brian Marren: 7:39

Now, without getting into that, I want to stick with the whole scam portion of how this stuff works and how this escalates. And so just to kind of loosely define, scams are fraud-based tricks that people use to steal money through ransom, purchases, investments, donations, payments and other means which the scammers know are wrong, illegal or unwarranted. So scammers generally target their victims online, via text or over the phone. So, however they gain access or in person is how they do it that's going to be dependent on what the situation is. But just like the Nigerian Prince scam email, that stuff is, you still see that stuff 10 years later or 15 years later or however long it's been going around. Because, well, it still works some of the time. Right, the idea is this stuff can stick around because sometimes it'll keep working. But there's a number of ways that scammers get access to their victims.

Brian Marren: 8:34

But there's sort of three big questions I kind of brought up at the beginning that I want to discuss in detail. So one, obviously why do these work? What's's the psychology behind them and who can fall for them? Like, who's more um able to fall for scams? And kind of like, well, we'll get to that. One last, because it's it's not really a trick question, but it but it. Some people are more prone to it, but we're all very prone to to fall, falling for a scam. So that's why I want to start with the first question, sort of like why do these work? Like, how come you, how can they be so easy to get over on people?

Greg Williams: 9:14

Yeah, and you know what Scams don't have to be clever or very detailed to work. And you brought up the Nigerian prince needs help. And you got to remember the original origin of that scam. Brian, was a letter. It was even before it was an email. It was a letter that came to homes and people would show up at their local police station saying, is this real? And they'd say, no, dread it, throw it away.

Greg Williams: 9:31

Okay, so it's always more about the victim than the scam, and so I just need to get the ball rolling and see how far your imagination is going to take us. And if I'm a good scammer, then I let you take lead on most of this, you know, and so and remember, we're talking low stakes scam, gas money. High stakes scam. I'm in love with you, let's get married, you know, sign over your credit card or whatever. So we have a spectrum, let's say, where some scammers don't do any research and they just cold call until they reach someone.

Greg Williams: 10:02

Some scams are so simple that on the phone, as they're starting up and you hear the noise in the background, the person pretends they can't hear you and they go hey, can you hear me? And then they record you answering yes, and then they use that to justify a future purpose. So we have to remember that entire households can be affected financially because one person answered that phone, one person answered the scam and high stakes again. You know the the uh scammer is thinking high returns and they get so serious that the scam can end up with death. And we saw that. And and Brian's going to put a couple more on the site that that that you can take a look and research that involve the death of the one or more of the participants, and we have to understand that that there's a chemical reaction. Uh, uh, it affects my.

Brian Marren: 10:49

Yeah, that you know so so, yeah, you and you brought up just before you go to that because you're kind of getting into it, but, uh, but you said it's more, um, it's more about the victim than the scam. Yeah, so what do you? What do you mean by that? Like, what is? Can you sort of elaborate on what that means? I?

Greg Williams: 11:08

have a secret and as long as I shut my mouth, nobody else is ever going to know that secret. But if I share that secret with you now, it starts leaking out, right? So the idea is that when I call you or confront you or walk up to you or send you a letter on the scam, it takes two to tango. We've heard that a billion times. I can't get there from here without you allowing me access. So the further you go, go on. Tell me more. Okay, what you know. I'd love to help. You're feeding those flames, brian. If you just say nope, not today, and shut it down, it's over, it's done.

Brian Marren: 11:50

Well, that's what I've heard someone talk about. It was probably a talk or interview or something. I can't remember who it was. I really like the way they put it. It's kind of just how you put it. But it said it takes two people to lie. It's one person to tell the lie and one person to believe it, or or follow through with it or go okay, yeah, I'll, I'll accept that as an answer or I'll accept that standard. So I and and that we that's so much of what we get into as well just because it's look, it's these, these things aren't just something that happens. Everything you know you interact with it, it interacts with you, so you have some say in all of these situations. So you kind of went down what you meant by that. But I always like that takeaway of that. It takes two people to lie. So it's another example, but sorry, I know you were getting into-.

Greg Williams: 12:35

No, no. So, Brian, to dovetail on exactly what you're bringing up, it affects my brain. What I mean is the scam itself and the scammer are both trying to get access, and if you get access to my prefrontal cortex, they got it made. We think with our prefrontal cortex. This is the center of our rational brain. We count on our prefrontal cortex to make good judgments and understand the long-term consequences of our actions or our decisions. So when you start fucking with my emotions or my family, or the time element, that makes me stupid Any time that we can create that time distance gap in our prefrontal cortex, we're going.

Greg Williams: 13:12

We're likely to make a conclusion or draw a conclusion rather, uh, that's going to be wrong or that's so quickly decided upon that somebody is going to make a mistake, and I don't. I don't mean that it's just a math problem. I mean, like your ATM, hey, listen, you know you got to put this on a credit card or go buy a gosh damn gift card and drop it in the mail. What? Okay, when you hear the premise when you're sitting in your own living room, brian, it's not affecting your prefrontal cortex, right? So we look at it and we go that's stupid. Who would fall for the, you know, nigerian prince right. But, brian, when you're in the moment and you're on that call and that person is trying to build it up, you know what I can see how it happens and and we know that it does happen.

Brian Marren: 13:57

No, and and you're, you're, uh, it it's, it's uh, there's.

Brian Marren: 14:01

There's different, different ways, because when you get into access and it messing with our brain, you know, especially when it's someone that we know, does the introduction Right or there's a, there's a, some third party involved in this even know it, even if it's, if it's unwitting, even if they don't know about it. There was one from a few years back where these folks made it, made a ton of money off of people but it ended up getting all the way to me. But it was an introduction from one of my friends, who's I won't mention the folks, but he's kind of well-known in sort of the fitness and kind of world and training and personal training. And then this was an introduction from a guy, actually, because this is the part you can read about online. And then this was an introduction from a guy actually it's because this is the part you can read about online is uh, the, the, his name is mark something, but it was, uh, the trainer. He's a big celebrity trainer, personal trainer, and he did all the uh training for that.

Brian Marren: 14:53

Remember the movie 300 that came out and it was like they trained all these guys together like this whole thing and it kind of came out.

Brian Marren: 15:00

Yeah, it came a big thing, but that guy was part of the scam. He got sc scammed by it and it was something with you know this Hollywood inside thing and you're going to come in and we'll pay you to do this and all that and anyway. But you ended up even someone calling me because my who gave my numbers, one of my buddies like oh, you got to get Brian, he would be perfect for something like this. You know what I mean. So I'm talking to this person and it's just the whole thing was so odd and they did this setup like hey, I'm so-and-so's assistant. She's going to get on the call here shortly. I just want to make sure you know what this is about. I'm like uh-huh, uh-huh, and then she comes on and it was like these really direct, weird questions and I was like, oh, this has scam written all over it. I was like like none of this makes sense. This isn't even how it's done and so.

Brian Marren: 15:48

But it's funny because of the way they did it and the way they talk and the questions they ask, because I talked to other um guys I know that do like a lot of the. There's some big tv shows where they're like the, they're in them and they're um, they're like former military and so they're in them and they do the technical advising right. So they do all like like the seal team shows where they train the guys how to, you know, move and shoot and act and look the part you know what I mean Like be tactically sound. So I know some of the people that do that and you know it was funny, cause I was talking to them and and even they were like it sounds odd, but also, you know, it's close enough to where, like kind of that's how hollywood can be sometimes.

Brian Marren: 16:23

And so they were like, they were like even them, they weren't doing the oh, run away from it. They're like I don't just see what it is, you're you'll, you'll know. You know I mean, you're gonna figure it out. So but it was, it was funny because even talking to them, so so the insiders in that industry were like well, it's not unheard of that, something like that could happen, but it does sound odd. You know what. Know what I mean. So it was such a great example, it was sort of cognitively close enough to what they did, and just so I want to tie that back to what everything you just brought up with the brain it really, really affects those catecholamines mean going oh, I want this, I want to be a part of this, or that sounds cool.

Greg Williams: 16:58

So I'll show you a quick trick to gain access that your brain will accept through the prefrontal cortex. So we're going right through the front of the brain. We don't have to go through the limbic system or, you know, titillate you with danger or opportunity, right? So the phone rings and you look at the phone and it comes from a government number. Now you know, now you can choose any number and dupe off of it and do whatever you want to do. And you go hello, and I go hey, brian, it's Dan. And you go hello. And I go hey, brian, it's Dan. And you say, hey, dan, and I go. How are you doing? And you go, hey, fine, I'm in, I'm already in there and now I have that trail going.

Greg Williams: 17:33

So, even though you catch on right away and go, who is this? No, I don't the idea of me starting off with your name in the familiar, as if there's no stress. That's applied, that's the opening volley. And guess what, if they get that far with you, they pass it on to the experts. They pass it from an intermediary that just cold, called you and said, yeah, I got a couple of hits on this number, and then they sell those numbers. So there are people out there that are refining this like advertisers would use a teaser to hook you on television.

Greg Williams: 18:07

So we're not talking about every single scammer. Is this low key? You know? Hey again, hey, can I get some gas money? That's a scam, that's a low level scam. But these people that are working in the higher levels, trust me, they've done the research, they've looked up your name and they see the photos that you're posting and then they're going to ask yeah, well, hey, you know, or they find out about a birthday or a significant date. And, brian, we're constantly on transmit right as humans, and specifically more so as humans, trying to train other humans how to do in-person, face-to-face encounters. So we're subject to a lot of scammery. I don't know if that's a word, but we get hit a lot more than most people.

Brian Marren: 18:47

No, you're, you're, you're, you're, you're right on that. And uh, you know it does. It does kind of fall into a number of different categories, so it's kind of like the. The next sort of question on here is this you know, what is the psychology kind of behind scams, and we're, we're starting to get into that why you I mean you start with the neuroscience of it, but it is what it like. These can be sort of broken down into different elements or different sort of categories on why they work, and so some, because some are going to work more on others you know what I mean Versus some might work on you, versus well, we can't get Brian with those, but we can get them with these, because you know that's where he'll draw them in.

Greg Williams: 19:24

So I've got a couple that I'll share with you and share with our audience. But I have to let you know folks that are listening or watching us that Brian plays the calliope, and one of the things that he tells me all the time when he's rehearsing his calliope is that, look, the song can change right in the middle to appeal to the audience. And that's what a good scammer will do. A good scammer will take you where you're leading them. So let's talk about a couple of these. The family obligation hey, jimmy can't postpone without your grandma and you don't want him to be in there over the weekend or over a holiday or whatever else. Okay, so now, family obligation that pulls at a certain amount of people, and I'll tell you what.

Greg Williams: 20:02

In different cultures, culture is context. That might be a very, very important string on which to pull. Then we have fear Look, we have your family member. Pay our, or we're going to shank them like a prison movie, right? A sense of urgency Look, this ship sails in 25 minutes. You run down and buy a gift card and hand it over to the Uber driver, or we're out of here. Excitement Look, you won. All you got to do is cover the shipping and handling and we're going to send you your cut of the profits.

Greg Williams: 20:32

That one still goes on and people are constantly calling police agencies and saying, hey, we just got this from a credible source in the mail and remember that there's legal implications if you put stuff through the mail and they say Publishers Clearinghouse. Well, publishers Clearinghouse is a legitimate thing, but guess how many scammers take a look at that and get real close to Publishers Clearinghouse, right, that's one of the excitement ones. And then, finally, I categorize it in five guilt. Look, now I've got a picture of your dick and you thought you were sexting with a young girl or boy or whatever. You the watermelon. But now that I've got it, I have your list of friends and I'm going to tell every one of your classmates and I'm going to send them a picture of your dick. Now you can pay me. Now that one alone, brian, has resulted in so many deaths since january that it's remarkable. And there they're targeting high school age kids, mostly boys, and those boys are very, very susceptible. So here this is a perfect example.

Greg Williams: 21:35

Each of these impairs the rational thinking center of my brain, so my prefrontal cortex is now inhibited Additionally, the emotions that these messages evoke, plus now a time element. Guess what? I don't have the time to use the gift of time and distance, so I'm unlikely to come up with a good evaluation of the likely outcomes, the options or assess the situation objectively, and that's where the problem is. So if I drive too fast on a dirt road and outrun my headlights, I'm liable to hit a tree, and that's exactly what they're going for. Here are the tree low level tree pay me the money and I might keep using you. The high level is I could hit that tree, airbag didn't deploy and we're all dead. And that's the way we have to think of these. This is a high risk, high return game.

Brian Marren: 22:23

And the time element is always huge and that's just a consistent sales tactic. You'll see there's tons of products out there. You go, oh, we're having the sale right now. It's only going on for this long and they have the countdown timer on their website and you're like, okay, oh, I better get it now. No, but it's just, the time element really increases the sense of urgency and the fear and the family. It actually enhances all of those other elements too, right, I mean all of it.

Greg Williams: 22:58

Let me hit on the temporal one time, Brian. So when we're talking about time elements, I'll give you two examples. One I grew up in an environment where Kmart was a thing, and when you went to Kmart you got good quality, low price stuff and they had the blue light special. You can only get this deal when that blue light was on, so that added to the mystique and the intrigue and the fun of getting that deal. Yeah Well, I'll take it to the other end. There were a couple of coppers flying around Albuquerque, New Mexico, and they looked down and saw a Krispy Kreme that was in their jurisdiction.

Greg Williams: 23:30

And the light came on for the hot, fresh donuts. So those cops conspired up there to land in the parking lot and run over and get them some free hot donuts. Do you see how our prefrontal cortex in both was inhibited. Low level blue light special. I probably don't need those extra underwear, but I'm going to get them. And and you know the Greg is in one day all underwear will be Brown. And then we got the other thing, the crispy cream, where these guys are flying around in a helo and risking their very livelihood. They're risking their job, brian, they're taking themselves out of the role Cause guess what? It's a donut. But that's what happens when our prefrontal cortex isn't driving the ship. That's what happens when we see this opportunity, we go I got donuts. Sounds pretty good right now.

Greg Williams: 24:08

So I want to make sure that we all understand that there's a scale and that scale, that continuum, is always in motion. So when we talk about the gift of time and distance, giving yourself a little more distance from the situation, which is also a metaphor it's giving yourself more time and giving yourself more physical distance. Guess what? It doesn't seem that intriguing or alluring anymore, and now we're making better decisions. That's the key. The key is that we give ourselves more time. Go back to the prefrontal cortex and we go. No, I really don't need to do this. What are some of the long-term you know consequences that will affect this short-term? You know gratification. And we don't do that enough as humans, because we're so. We repeat behaviors so often that we don't stop and think what are the likely outcomes.

Brian Marren: 24:57

Yeah, and the other. The other ones are, you know, the time element. But then also, if you're in an area like this was why you know to bring up gas stations again, when someone comes up walking, or someone comes up to you, you know to ask for money or something like that, and you, you can't go anywhere. I mean because you're literally sitting there filling your car with gas, like you're not, like you're, you're, you're locked in that position, you're not go, you're just a sitting duck at that point, waiting and someone can come up, and that's why those areas are always frequented by people, because you, you can't, you're good, they know once, once that hose comes off, that's the uh uh the, it goes into your car, whatever once it, once you start filling up, like you're not going anywhere for a while.

Greg Williams: 25:37

So again, it goes back for many years yeah so so the, the, the idea, the, the idea.

Brian Marren: 25:46

Being like, with all of these, we can sort of all fall victim to them.

Brian Marren: 25:51

And I look at it too as, even when I'm, you know, I need to co-opt the insurgent, you know, here at home to help me with something in the yard or whatever, like, I'm like, all right, I gotta put something together to entice her to come out and do this, you know, whatever it is.

Brian Marren: 26:06

And so I'm basically doing the same thing. I'm creating a scam to get her to either, you know, come out and help me, or do something first, or work on this project around the house before she goes out with her friends, or something like that. So when I and the reason why I'm bringing those up is when I look at it that way it kind of helps me identify these, these scams a little bit easier. And and me identify these, these scams a little bit easier. And and again, I use the term scam for for a lot of things it could be something so low level someone just trying to get in front, someone trying to get to the front line at the coffee shop, or something like that, whether they gain an advantage yes, and that's what it is.

Brian Marren: 26:38

And even sometimes, if they're legitimate and they're running late or something like that, they still got to bamboozle you to kind of get in front of everyone. So those elements are going to be similar.

Greg Williams: 26:48

Handicapped parking Okay, some people use the handicapped parking sticker that they, you know ill-gotten sticker to gain an advantage and park closer. You know and we haven't entered into karma, that level of science, because the only real science is a horoscope right but the idea is that when you take a look at it objectively, they don't pass the smell test, do they? Because after a while those things are going to bite back and sooner or later, like people don't understand what we mean by that If you allow that slippery slope to start in your life, you'll be out of tune, out of sync with other patterns that start developing and you'll start either falling for them or not trusting anybody. So that's why you have to be in tune, that's why you have to be simpatico with these. So when you see somebody that really needs a handout hey, can I have a cigarette? You get what I'm trying to say.

Brian Marren: 27:39

You know the difference right, that's a good point. And sometimes the language that we use or people use for this stuff and that's why I use the term scam so I use it a lot because I don't mean it as something even that deliberate sometimes or something that serious, I just lose it as look, anytime someone's trying to get over on someone, now you're scamming them, right. But one of the things that people do when they kind of get someone and they get that victim, they'll use a certain type of language and they'll legitimize, sort of, their concerns about something. It's the same thing. It's like with anytime there's elections going on. You see, political ads.

Brian Marren: 28:24

Political ads are the best, because it's like you could just pick apart all these elements. You're like don't bring up anything, I don't care who it is, they will use whatever they can. And it's a scam, it's a form of another. It's like I'm trying to play on your fears, right, it legitimize your concerns, and then I'm going to point you at who the enemy is and now you have no other option Like, oh God, this makes sense, we must stop that. And it's like all right. Like what do we? Is that really what's going on? And you know everyone does that.

Brian Marren: 28:54

But it's such a great example of all of those advertisements because, you know, because they're really really trying to win you over to take action to do something, to win you over to take action to to do something, so, so they're actually trying to change your behavior or or promote that behavior or get you to literally go to a poll physically and vote for someone.

Brian Marren: 29:13

I mean, it's so, so, there, it's such a powerful example of it that that you know, even when it's just politics, just how it is, but when you look at it that way, it kind of again, those things help me identify other situations where someone's just trying to sell me a line of crap that I, that I don't need. You know it's the, it's the classic, you know used car, like, hey, now let's talk about rust proofing, you're going to want to get this thing. It's like, wait a minute, what are you talking about here? So I, just those are. Those are a couple other elements that you know I wanted to kind of add in to. When we talk about the psychology behind scams, it really will legitimize some concern.

Greg Williams: 29:51

That is a completely irrational concern that you may have, and so that's the point, you and I, when we're together, constantly invoke the movie Scrooged with Bill Murray, acid rain, Drive-by shootings, the apocalypse and the explosions and everything. And you what, you're eating the popcorn man. You can't help but watch. Yeah, again, that's a form of access. Now, that would be a psychological right. Sociological form of access hey, it's great for our community. Uh, physiological form of access hey, you can look so many years younger, brian, with this, with this bomb that I make from a seashell. Yeah, right, that's it. Those are scams that are physiologically based. And then the psychological based acid brain. These things are right. And guess what?

Greg Williams: 30:36

Well, yeah they go back to each of those.

Brian Marren: 30:39

Yeah, I would say, it goes right right back to fear. Fear is one of the best motivators and I think it's like you said right at at the beginning it bypasses that prefrontal cortex, you're going right to your limbic system and now I'm in survival mode. And once you get someone in that survival mode, those decisions become very binary, right. So I don't, I don't, I don't create other options for myself. I go yes or no, or I need to. You know I need to flee, or I need to fight, I need to, I need to buy this thing, or I need to get on board or I need to run away. I mean, that's the idea as it comes down to. So who then? You know who can fall for scams, and I know technically anyone, but there is actually some good research out there on who scammers target and why.

Greg Williams: 31:22

So I will tell you this. I will give you a story from growing up as a copper, and I mean maturing as a copper. The one thing that I found out about our agency in Michigan is that if you sat at this front desk you were looking at the rest of the police station that was in front of you, All of the traffic bureau and records were behind you or above you. And then you had the door on the left that came in from the parking lot and the courts and you know it's sort of the busiest area. And then the right-hand door beautiful, wonderful, big doors that were never used, they were almost never unlocked and they led out to a place where there was a flagpole and some a memoriam and there were no parking spots. The street outside was, you know, was going fast and furious, so nobody ever pulled over there and came in those doors. It was more, the architect wanted it for a photo. It was a beautiful photo opportunity. So we learned fast that anybody that came in from those doors something was wrong with that person and we started calling them the 96 door, the nut door, and I hate to use those terms, but you got to understand. Four years ago that was du jour. That's how things happen, and so I can remember many times, uh, you know, being in the station or work in the front desk, that the scrum started when somebody came in that door and the shit sandwich was in full bloom, Right. So even in area and Stephen King has made a billion dollars doing that right Picking out the car or the business or the hotel that was evil and that had those things. So I would tell you that when you take a look at that, the story I'm trying to tell here is that person is somehow different and they chose that door, even though right over here was the best door and you can see it from there, you can see a parking lot and it's safe and you can walk up.

Greg Williams: 33:06

So who can fall for scams? That person? And what do I mean by that? Do I mean that they're sub-intellectual? No, but what does Gallup say? Gallup says that adults with no college education are twice as likely as college grads to be victimized. In the past year there was a whole bunch. 21 November 2023, is a Gallup story. I'm citing folks that want to look that up and households earning less than $50,000 a year are about twice as likely as middle-income people to be scammed, and young adults have the highest overall rate of household victimization. In other words, they're the one that the scammers pick on, rather than anybody in the house.

Greg Williams: 33:43

So think about just those little data points for just a minute before we go any further. So what are we trying to say? We're trying to say look, if you're earning less money, you're always on a lookout for opportunity, which means that scams might be more prevalent in your world. Not that you're dumber. And look, college education generally means that you've traveled more, You've experienced more things with other people. You're not constantly in that defensive mode where you're going around trying not to get robbed. Right that you're working that job. Oh, my God, I got to have two jobs. What does that mean? That means your prefrontal cortex is already inhibited. And the youngest? They're just less experienced. So if we look at Gallup's numbers, I would say that it's a cross-section of our society that's needy. They need more and they don't have the type of time to make better decisions or draw more reasonable conclusions. And, trust me, you don't think that a scammer is going to research Gallup.

Greg Williams: 34:35

Gallup regularly asks Americans how often they worry about types of crimes. Right, and so being tripped by a scammer is or sending money to them or providing access to a financial account. All the stuff that goes on with scams is the second highest victimization concern. Only identity theft ranks higher than scams, so that means that it's on your mind all the time. But, Brian, you and I could take a small low-level, low-stakes scam and still make it through the day. But what about one of those people that doesn't have that high-functioning job with a good income that's coming in? How do you walk back in and tell your wife or significant other that you sold the cow for these three fucking beans? I mean, where do you think that story came from? The beanstalk?

Greg Williams: 35:20

story is a huge example of this, I think.

Brian Marren: 35:25

No, and that's a great one. It's a great example, and I would even say because, like you said, if I'm not making as much money, I'm always on the lookout for opportunity, I'm always trying to get ahead or do something. But on the opposite end of that spectrum that's true as well you go to very, very wealthy people who are maybe in finance or whatever, who are constantly looking for an insight, constantly looking for that edge, constantly looking for something else. Well, why do you think Bernie Madoff was able to fool so many people with this Ponzi scheme?

Greg Williams: 35:53

and why those things?

Brian Marren: 35:54

continue to work. And how many of these? I think someone did a story on it too. It was like when Forbes has their list of 30 under 30 or these billionaires or whatever, and within 10 years, half of them, like half of the people that they had named as well. Look at these people creating all this stuff. It was all fraud, it was all. I mean literally half of them are all going to jail because it was all a BS scheme, and that's the thing is that you're more susceptible there as well because you're in that world going. Any one of these things could take off and be the next billion-dollar company. I want to make sure I'm getting in there. I want to be part of this. It's almost like the same mechanism on two opposite ends of the socioeconomic spectrum, because it's how we're sort of wired, you know what I'm saying.

Greg Williams: 36:39

So let's use science to try to prove that, brian. So the majority of people that experience property theft they have their home vandalized or broken into. Okay, they're going to report it. The people that are victims of scam less than 30% of them ever reported to police. Why, well, there's an ego thing. That's there too, right You're going? Oh my God, I don't want anybody to find out. I'm this stupid.

Greg Williams: 37:00

Now let's take a look at a demographic, also from the Gallup poll, that said the state's hit hardest by the investment scams were Nevada, california, washington, florida and Hawaii. How much does it take to live and thrive in Hawaii? Same thing with Florida being on the water. Look at what Nevada and California have. Both of them have gambling and they have big, beautiful homes or very, very low economic rural areas that go around. So I have to scam.

Greg Williams: 37:26

What you remember the old saying from the world's most effective and efficient bank robber back in the day? What did he say? Why do you rob banks? And he said that's where the money is. So the idea is you understand, and I understand, that they're not going to go for everybody. Like squatting in a house is a completely different crime. We're talking about somebody that's risking mail fraud and criminal fraud charges and all these other things. But they're not going to do that for enough money for the gas. That's at low level that you don't have to worry about. They're going to do that because they need your car, they need your identity, they need your house or your money and they're willing to put in the game.

Greg Williams: 38:05

There was the time to play the game and you have to be a willing participant. So if they find that you're not, they have to do the nudge. And what's the nudge? The nudge is there. Now I'm going to appeal to that greed. Or I'm going to appeal to that you know, family. Or I'm going to you know say uh, listen, I, I have to threaten you at this point to tell you you're in it too far. I'll go to the whatever. And those things work. How do I know they work? 30% or less. People report them to the conference. Brian, it would be a different number. I really feel it would.

Brian Marren: 38:36

No, yeah, that's a great point. A lot of people don't want to report that stuff, they don't want to admit that they were scammed, and we see stuff like that all the time and that's why a lot of those scams continue to work and that's why some people get away with them and continue to do them, because no one reports it. They're embarrassed, they got taken advantage of and no one likes that feeling, obviously, and so it's, you know, not going to want to tell anyone about it, even though everyone falls for this stuff, even though we all do, I mean, we fall for our own scams sometimes we create in our heads, you know what I'm saying.

Greg Williams: 39:11

That's so true. Oh my gosh, get out of my head.

Brian Marren: 39:14

Start believing our own BS sometimes. And you know, know we, we want to. You know people, people want to want to believe. I know you. You included in there too, and and I'll put a link to to an article.

Brian Marren: 39:26

But the one of my favorite ones is the the catch me, if you can, the Frank Abagnale guy who, you know who, who made a living off of lying about, about lying Like he only committed a few crimes a long time ago and he turned. He just he lied constantly about everything that he did and then they turned it into a movie and then he continued, was able to continue that lie over decades of right, and so I'll include the link in the uh in the episode detail. But the idea is people went back a couple people said wait a minute, this isn't, this sounds like bs. And they went back and looked at everything that he said he did, compared it to his prison records and what was known, and there was, it was all bs. Even my brother, when he was in college and he was going through taking some finance courses and stuff, and he uh, their, their school paid him to come out and talk about what he did and it was they did you know? Years later they're like this was all.

Brian Marren: 40:18

BS. He kept it going. He's kept it going for decades, you know, on all BS. Because that's the thing is like if a scammer is a scammer, we've all met someone before who's constantly trying to scheme and scam. That's who they are, you know, if they're continuing through life that way, they're not going to suddenly change. And that was his whole story. He's like oh well, I've changed. I did this back then between these years, and you know it was wrong, and it's like no, you're just continuing. You're continuing the story.

Greg Williams: 40:45

It's become a lifestyle. It has modified you as much as you've modified it.

Brian Marren: 40:49

It really is. And you know, like we keep saying, we can all fall victim to this because one it goes back. Well, my favorite is the line from the X-Files, remember, people want to believe, right, we want to believe, and we want to not just believe you and what your story is. We want to believe that we've got some insight and some knowledge that's going to gain us some sort of advantage or the other end. Oh my gosh, I need to help this person. Help this person, right, I want to, I want to. You know, that's that's the whole nonprofit world is is filled with fraudulent, uh, scams that that people are doing. You know, donate money, a couple bucks here. You know that you gotta be really careful on all of those, because if you don't know about that organization, do not give them your money. You know, because you don't know what's going on and there's a lot of those folks out there that are just doing it to make some money and do whatever. But you're hugging on the heartstrings of people that really are well-intentioned.

Greg Williams: 41:49

No, and let's talk about that briefly. Look so all my research showed that in investment scams alone it's just under $4 billion a year. So if we understand that less than 30% of those are reported, we just take the three.

Brian Marren: 42:03

Yeah, I was going to say Multiply that by four, you get what I'm trying to say.

Greg Williams: 42:08

So that's a $12 billion just on investment scams. So how much do scams cost us? They cost us a lot and they become part of society. So William Thompson, a long time before Frank Abagnale, was the one that gave rise to the term confidence man. He would con a con man or con woman was gaining your confidence with upper of yours. Or I need a couple of bucks and I'll be right back. And then they wouldn't. And then the rich people would go oh, it's a minor league loss, I'm not going to report it. And guess what? William Thompson was high on the hog for a good long time. So to get something named after you, like Ponzi.

Brian Marren: 42:55

Ponzi's a guy Ponzi, that's Charles Ponzi. Yeah, he's a real person.

Greg Williams: 42:59

So we don't sometimes think about how important that is. And then you get somebody like Silicon Valley, stanford University, elizabeth Holmes she found Sterinos right Comes up with this new blood. Okay.

Greg Williams: 43:13

And I revolutioned everything and then all of a sudden, when you take a look at it, she's a billionaire and she's a criminal. It was all fraudulent, there was no you know, when people just scratched the surface. But guess what, Brian, that greed made me want to believe. So I think you know one end of the spectrum and the other. I think fear and greed, are the ones that motivate us most, and when we don't have that gift of time and distance, we're more apt to fall for them.

Brian Marren: 43:40

And that's why I brought up the sort of opposite end of that socioeconomic spectrum, like this isn't just your.

Brian Marren: 43:45

Nana falling for the Nigerian Prince scheme over email. These are people that are trying to thinking they're gaining some insight. So what did she do? She had access to all the right people. She could speak intelligently enough to people who weren't experts in that area. And then you'd see her. She started dressing like Steve Jobs. She had the black sweater, like turtleneck sweater, exactly, and had that weird affect in her voice. That was not natural and she would do all this image. She created this. Well, even recently, I was telling you, someone interviewed her again mean, this is after obviously she's been found out. She's in jail or, I think, released. I can't remember. But the writer, the writer for this article, got slammed because they fell for it. They got in like they. They kind of wrote up this like this, this piece. That was very flattering to her. It was almost oh, we should have some sympathy for this person.

Greg Williams: 44:40

It's like you got duped, man, you fell for it, just like everybody else, and so she took your confidence she didn't take your money right and it's still.

Greg Williams: 44:49

It's bad, that's still a fraud because you're gaining an advantage and you know what. We have to understand that there's laws that are out there. So if you feel like you're a victim, make sure you do that. Brian and I aren't into the TTPs of that, but I will tell you that everybody plays into it. Give me an example Pretty Woman Can't think of the actress to save my ass.

Brian Marren: 45:11

Julia.

Greg Williams: 45:12

Roberts, julia Roberts. She was in so many different films and Julia, don't hate me for this, I know you text me often, but Pretty Woman was a hooker that is going to make it good, and the idea is that everything that was about that show was a falsity.

Greg Williams: 45:31

I've known hookers my entire adult life, professionally and personally, and the idea is it's a bad situation that they're trying to get out of. There was a standing order in Detroit that if you took one female prostitute in non-attribution, that they'd give you time off without pay because she had so many diseases and smelled so bad and poor woman. That was all the lifestyle that she knew. So we purport something, and then all of a sudden, that gives it legitimacy. And that's how a scam works. That Nigerian Prince understood that. Hey, you don't understand, man, I got the shaft Right and now all of a sudden you're going to tell me more. And then, you know, I kind of got screwed on this and the only thing I can think of is maybe, if you help me out, we can both be good. And now that's the parking lot scam. Brian, we're look, hey, I think I found a diamond ring in the parking lot. And the other person looks at it and goes, hey, uh, that's my ring. Oh well, this is what we'll do. We'll both put money in this envelope, brian.

Greg Williams: 46:28

Uh, back in the day, and I apologize for using dated terms.

Greg Williams: 46:31

I don't know what the current dei is, but uh, gypsy scams. Uh, we're in hungary and while we were building the observation towers for our course there, the Hungarian special forces, the people came in cars and were taking the wood and the nails out of our towers so we couldn't climb up in them because they needed something to sell. So everybody is always in motion, and that's what we have to understand is, if you're spinning just to get to work and do your thing, comb your kid's hair and do that, you're probably on the right track. But there's somebody that's looking and living in those margins, brian, and they see an advantage and if they can work into that advantage, hey, do you mind dropping me off here? Hey, do you do that? Coming up to the window, hey, I'll wash your window for whatever. Okay, you gotta be on scam alert in your brain and you know who. We've got a friend that is always on scam alert and has a lot of good background information on this, if you know who I'm talking about.

Brian Marren: 47:25

What's that, our Andy Brown?

Greg Williams: 47:30

Andy Brown is a good guy that's got a lot of stuff on his site about getting scammed like this Wait andy brown is.

Brian Marren: 47:39

Uh wait, he wrote now andy murphy from secure, secure daddy murphy. Oh my god, andy is never gonna uh no, andy brown hence brian not responding air force, air force, uh, who we love uh shot.

Greg Williams: 47:56

A active uh shooter?

Brian Marren: 47:58

no, no, yeah yeah, no, he's, he's.

Brian Marren: 48:02

He's got a lot of um I make mistakes great stuff on there where he talks about, about, ttps and and and different things that you can do and how to, how to help with, uh, deny access especially with kids too and cell phones, and, and you get some of the stories you were talking about at the beginning um, and and with with um, with, with all of these, um, you know you, you're getting into uh, the. The way I, the way I look at something like this is is it's part of the, the human condition, of why we fall into these things? It's mostly because either we want to help or we have all these different reasons, right, whether it's greed, it's personal gain, it's, it's uh, I want to help someone out. I have, you know, nana, who falls for everything because she thinks everyone's the sweetest person on the face of the earth, and that's what we fall into.

Brian Marren: 48:44

And I use and this is why I kind of brought up at the beginning is when I use, hey, this is a scam.

Brian Marren: 48:49

It's not necessarily when I use that term meaning like, okay, this is a big elaborate scheme, it's just someone's trying to get one over on me, and the sooner you can realize that, because it's really about boundaries, right, if I allow access or if I don't set boundaries with people, someone's going to try to push those boundaries, someone's going to test them. That's how people gain access to me. And so, if I look at it, from who do I want to allow access? It's like, well, where are these boundaries going to be with this individual access? It's like, well, where are these boundaries going to be with this individual? I mean, you know, it's the guy walking up at the gas station to ask for a couple bucks when you're sitting at the car, when I, you know. That's why it's all about time and distance, as they if, once they make eye contact with me and start walking over, you know I can go. Eh, that's close enough, right there, right before they ever take another step, because now I'm saying no, no, no, you're not controlling the situation anymore.

Greg Williams: 49:39

You're taking back the narrative.

Brian Marren: 49:42

Or we're at least on equal footing here.

Greg Williams: 49:43

You know what I'm saying?

Brian Marren: 49:44

I'm not letting you get that advantage, and so that's why we reiterate the time and distance and how big of a factor that plays, and this is such a great example of one. I mean, you go back to the story from the beginning, this 81-year-old guy. He's just like, okay, you've got my family member. What's going on? He's immediately gone into like there's something happening here. He's immediately scared.

Greg Williams: 50:09

Now there's someone showing up at my house In his own driveway coming up to his front door.

Brian Marren: 50:13

You could tell if you read through the articles and what happened, you know it's. It's. I mean, it's so obvious that this guy is just he's trying to figure out what's going on. He's scared because he's like talking, like who the hell are you? Give me your phone, shoots her once, then keeps talking and shoots again, like and imagine you, because he believes the story?

Greg Williams: 50:33

yeah, and and here's the thing.

Greg Williams: 50:35

We could talk to the defense attorney on that exactly, and ms hall didn't need to die and we're sorry she was part of the scam. Uh, but the entire idea is that brock used his pistol to gain information because he thought a family member was in peril. I have kidnapped this family member, you have, and and I mean, if you can't see that, uh, we're not talking a premeditated murder here. We're talking that that, yes, a person. But there's so many mitigating factors here and I'll give you this too, brian, we always have to look at the historic perspective. Okay, do you understand that we used to have things that you could order and they would be delivered cash on delivery, that you paid the postman when they showed up? Can you imagine that nowadays? Okay, talk about the robberies and homicide.

Greg Williams: 51:21

The other thing is go around in your neighborhood. This is just like the feral cats and the looking at shopping carts. Look for a sign on an old person's home in your neighborhood that says no solicitors. Okay, what does that mean? That in the old days, people used to come up and knock on your door. That's how they gained access. Avon to sell a vacuum, to sell you candy, to get their kids football team jerseys All of those things happened to the point that old people put up no solicitors because they didn't want to have to deal with your scam at my front door. So now, because technology comes in every aspect of our lives, the scammers just got smarter. They, they, they got more efficient.

Brian Marren: 52:02

Let's say yeah Well, they're always going to be one step ahead of the curve of of. You know, that's the whole thing is why a lot of times we don't get into the TTPs because they change so so frequently and and you know, they're always going to be ahead of it. So, you know, I, I think we, we kind of covered a lot and and some of the different, some of the different reasons sort of why we fall into these are always cause they're fascinating to me because they work. They work because we're human beings and they work on.

Brian Marren: 52:29

You know, I don't care who you are, where you're at you're, you're so susceptible to these things, and so the more I can recognize what, what a scam is, whether it's the you know throw in, you know round up at the cash register to donate money to this cause. It's like I don't know anything about that cause. You know, I really don't, like I'm not doing that. I'm sorry, like I would, like I have my things, that I put my time and my money towards and and that's what I support, like I don't have to do that in every one of these situations. And it's like you, it's because it could be a scam and they make it so easy all the time.

Brian Marren: 53:05

It's everywhere, yeah, it's, it's so. It's like, oh, it's just another click, it's just another this, and it's like no man, I'm not, I gotta gotta set that boundary, because you know, the better you get at that, I mean the better you get at recognize them, no matter where you're at. How many times you're like, all right, we see something a mile away and you're like, yeah, I know where this is going, but I don't think so. And so you can sort of get better at that and just realizing how much it affects our psychology and just the catecholamines in our brain, how those are kicking during any of these situations, and then, once I put that, that you know I lessen that time.

Brian Marren: 53:42

Or that distance man I get, I get dumb pretty quick. Or you know, and the same, which is the story from the beginning that you know, he went very primal very quickly and given the context of the situation, it's completely understandable why he did. He is not an irrational human being. What he was in the moment thought, believed all that to be true. So what would you have done? Who wouldn't have then grabbed this person?

Greg Williams: 54:05

and put a gun to them and said he spent 81 years of his life doing the right thing right. And even the Uber driver she's 61 years old, she's been around, she knows the game, but she didn't understand the game. When somebody says, yeah, just go to this address, so you co-opting somebody else in the normal day-to-day Brian, that's what makes it easy. That access is so critical. And remember, folks, we're the ones that allow it.

Brian Marren: 54:30

That's what we're trying to get across here. Well, that's what.

Greg Williams: 54:31

I have to.

Brian Marren: 54:33

Yeah, that's what I always get across to the insurgent too. I'm like stranger danger is fucking bullshit, like it's gonna be your friend. That you know goes. Hey, you want to get drunk and high, it's gonna be your buddy. It's not like it's one of your own. There's no, you know the. The creepy van where someone runs out and grabs a kid happens like once, once a year or something you know what I mean like that's, that's, it's, it's someone you know, so that's the idea too, and and so same thing with with scams.

Brian Marren: 55:02

But, um, we, we covered a lot, greg, I don't know any. I would also add to anyone yet check out the the secure dad podcast. He does a lot of great stuff, especially especially for families and kids and and to know how people are kind of like gaining access through different areas or apps or things that, like you wouldn't think of, that, clearly weren't designed for that. But he'll go in and show you like hey, you got to take a look at this because you know people can access this way, even if you have these settings. And now your kid's talking to someone, thinking that they're just another kid on tiktok or something like that. So he's really good at that stuff because he gets, brings in a whole bunch of experts and talks them too too. So shout out to Andy Murphy and shout out to Andy Brown too.

Greg Williams: 55:40

We haven't actually talked in a while. So now that I've conflated them, I love Andy Brown. He's such a wonderful guy and I actually wrote down on my yellow pad right here. I wrote down Andy Brown. I put two asterisks secure dead. So I was hooked from the very beginning, when I was writing.

Brian Marren: 55:54

Oh yeah.

Greg Williams: 56:05

You in my mind, you scammed yourself. This is what I mean. Yeah, we. And for anybody that wants to know, I did, I believed it. Anybody that wants to see physiology go back to the point where brian just didn't say anything and I was like, yeah, our buddy andy brown, and brian said nothing. Again my histamine level was at like 270. Uh, I was beat red so I could lead the sleigh on christmas because I believed into it.

Brian Marren: 56:19

I was like I didn't know where you were going with that. I was like where are you? Going with this.

Greg Williams: 56:23

How often do you do that when you're with me, though?

Brian Marren: 56:25

Okay, I mean that's a pretty common error with me, because I'm thinking one thing and Brian's like no, that was Da. Vinci Greg is constantly. I know this I was there.

Greg Williams: 56:42

I fell for me again, Greg. That happened in 1872.

Brian Marren: 56:44

That's perfect.

Greg Williams: 56:44

Well, I'll go on LinkedIn and apologize to both of those idiots. Yeah, we love them.

Brian Marren: 56:49

Yeah, yeah, he does. Yeah, he's laughing the hardest at it too. Exactly.

Greg Williams: 56:54

That's good.

Brian Marren: 56:55

All right. Well, thanks everyone for tuning in. I'll check out the episode details for links to those stories and then we'll have more on Patreon as well to check out. But we thank you all for tuning in, for listening and giving us your. You'd like more information or deeper dive on anything that we talked about. You can always sign up at our Patreon site or reach out to us at thehumanbehaviorpodcast at gmailcom.