Doug Laux "Left of Boom"

What if building a genuine connection could be the key to cracking complex intelligence operations? This episode features Doug Laux, a former CIA case officer and bestselling author of "Left of Boom," who lifts the veil on his secretive world. Doug shares stories from his time working undercover in perilous environments like Afghanistan and Syria, where he learned the indispensable value of human connection and relationship-building. He also discusses his unexpected journey from field operations to television screens, offering a unique glance into life after the agency and the universal principles that guide human behavior, even amidst chaos.

The conversation takes an intriguing turn as we explore "left of boom," a term that has journeyed from military manuals into mainstream conversations. We'll uncover the essence of a case officer's role, including the challenges of recruiting spies and establishing trust with former adversaries. Doug reveals the operational hurdles of the Global War on Terror and how concepts like "left of boom" have transcended their original contexts. Through tales of camaraderie and professional bonds, Doug and I reminisce about shared experiences that highlight the ability to forge trust, whether in conflict zones or while engaging in light-hearted banter on alien-themed shows.

Beyond the cloak-and-dagger narratives, we tackle the moral complexities faced by intelligence officers working with former enemies and the persistent tension between adhering to protocol and embracing innovation. Doug provides a rare, candid look into the human side of intelligence operations, where empathy, authenticity, and strategic thinking are vital. From navigating bureaucracies at the CIA to exploring the mysteries of UFOs on Netflix, Doug Laux gives us a comprehensive tour of the paths less traveled, ensuring a captivating listen for anyone curious about the world of espionage and the human elements within.

Check out LEFT OF BOOM

Chapters

• 0:00 Exploring Human Behavior in Intelligence Operations
• 13:59 The Concept of Left of Boom
• 21:54 Building Bonds Through Intelligence Operations
• 34:59 Navigating New Territory in Intelligence
• 40:02 Developing Human Relationships in Intelligence
• 48:27 Understanding Human Behavior in Intelligence
• 54:51 Establishing Trust in Intelligence Operations
• 59:32 Navigating Expectations and Accountability
• 1:07:04 Reflecting on Agency Remarks and Evolution
• 1:17:57 Beliefs and Stories About Aliens
• 1:30:23 War Stories and Sniper Myths
• 1:37:48 Building Trust Through Honest Conversations

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:00

Hello everyone and welcome to the Human Behavior Podcast. Today we are thrilled to have a truly remarkable guest joining us, Mr Doug Lauchs. Doug is a former CIA case officer who spent years working undercover in some of the world's most dangerous environments, facing threats from the Taliban and Al Qaeda. His experiences are powerfully captured in his New York Times bestselling book Left of Boom, which I highly recommend you check out. Doug's unique career has also brought him into the world of television, with appearances on several series, including his latest role on the Netflix documentary series Investigation Alien.

Speaker 1: 0:30

In this episode, Doug shares his deep insights into human behavior, shaped by his extraordinary experiences in high stakes operations. We discuss how these experiences influence his understanding of people today, as well as reflect on some of the moments we've shared working together and our mutual frustrations with navigating the complexities of the US government. I'm incredibly grateful to Doug for taking the time to join us. He's an extraordinary individual, a dedicated patriot and someone whose perspective is as fascinating as it is inspiring. Thank you so much for tuning in. We hope you enjoyed the episode. Don't forget to check out our Patreon channel for additional content and subscriber-only episodes. If you enjoy the podcast, please consider leaving us a review and, more importantly, sharing it with a friend. Thank you for your time and remember training changes behavior. All right, Well, today, very special show, Greg, We've got Doug Lauchs on the show. Doug, I really appreciate you coming on here, man, it was great to catch up with you over the weekend and thank you so much for gracing us with your presence today.

Speaker 2: 1:29

Yeah, happy to be here. That was quite a conversation. I looked at my phone afterwards I was like that was an hour and 20 minutes.

Speaker 1: 1:36

I know, I know, I was like, oh shit, my bad, I had some stuff I had to do. I was like to my wife I was like, yeah, sorry about that. She's like who are you talking to? I was like, long story, remember the guy on netflix that we saw that I said I knew that was him. So so, speaking of that, uh, I know our listeners kind of heard, heard, heard a little bit of an intro on you and, um, there's a ton we could get into. Obviously it's it's the human behavior podcast. So I I try to keep things somewhat somewhat.

Speaker 1: 2:05

Uh, uh, you know, in within that, that ballpark area, but, um, you know, you got an incredible career in a sense. You know you're one of the I think one of the few case officers, uh, you know, who've actually written stuff about what's been happening over the last 20 years in the g when you're at the CIA. But you were working there. You did some incredible work in Afghanistan, some incredible work in Syria. Just in general, I'm a huge fan of what you've done and what you've accomplished, and you wrote the book Left of Boom on your experiences, which is a really cool story for everyone to check out. I'll have the links to it in the details, because it not only tells some amazing stuff about what you did and it's heavily redacted but you can read between the lines if you know anything about the area but it also gives sort of the personal side of things too to what your life was like, which I fortunately got to see some of, I guess.

Speaker 2: 3:08

You were going through the book scanning for your name the entire time. I'm like please don't tell me.

Speaker 1: 3:16

I don't know what you're talking about, but but we, yeah. So so you know, and then you and I crossed paths a while back I mean gosh, gosh, I guess it was over 10 years ago um, time, time, time flies when you're when you're miserable, I guess. Um, but we, we cross paths, uh, on some work we were doing and, um, so you actually had some exposure to, uh, greg's work, which, which is what it is the HBPR and a human behavior pattern recognition analysis and stuff. So you know that kind of how we met, I guess.

Speaker 1: 3:50

But kind of want to start somewhere for our audience because, like I said, there's a lot to get into with some of your work that we did.

Speaker 1: 3:56

And you know it's interesting how someone like yourself, who is a no shit, actual case officer on the ground, running sources and doing incredible work in Afghanistan, like so much of what you have to do just relies on human connection and establishing relationships, not just with one person, establishing a network of relationships and really like it's which is exhausting. Just you know in general to do that constantly, and so I'm kind of curious. We can start wherever you want on that. But you know, on some of the, some of the takeaways and things that you've learned throughout that about what it what it takes to really establish connections with people and understand human behavior, and how influential it is, in a sense, to to what it is that you did in your role. But with everything right, technology is one thing, but it still comes down to a human being and meeting with another human being and to having a conversation. Really, I mean so it's kind of a long-winded intro around nothing, but I think we just got to drop everyone in the grease and get going on the conversation Most gracious intro.

Speaker 2: 5:04

Thank you, and Greg, I'm looking forward to speaking with you as well. You know, brian and I started out around the same time 10 years ago and we were both instructors for Tier 1 Elements and I always heard your name and I always heard you were the big boss. So it's either.

Speaker 3: 5:22

Well, the big part is correct. I mean, if we go by sheer weight, Doug, that is true.

Speaker 2: 5:28

Yeah, I think slightly, probably. I was always behind the scenes a little scared like, oh man, someday I'm going to have to meet this Greg guy and he's going to know way more than me and he's going to teach this course way better than me, oh man. But uh, yeah, here we are on a zoom of types. So, um, but I'm happy to be here and yeah, brian, you said it, it was nice, uh, chatting over the weekend.

Speaker 2: 5:52

I haven't talked to you in quite a while yeah probably was 10 or 11 years ago when we started, uh, doing defense contracting. I can still remember a lot of it. So if there's any specific items you guys want to talk about, just ask and I'll expand. I don't really dodge questions, which is again why I don't do podcasts a whole lot, guys, because I do like this topic and probably, unfortunately, I don't think enough people take it as seriously as really what it is. It's kind of just something to talk about, not something actually do, and it's something that gets trained but not actually conducted. And it's a earmark and it's a slip of paper that says you passed the course but then you never really did it in real life. And then you expect to teach the course 10 or 15 years later, but you didn't pay attention when you were being taught it and you didn't do it in reality. So why are you the instructor? So I'm sure we can talk about that too.

Speaker 1: 7:06

But yeah, that's actually a great kind of starting point too, because you know you get. You get certain types of training when you go to what everyone calls the farm, right at the, at the agency and and you know a big thing is about like building rapport with people and you got to do. But you know a lot of that isn't really taught how to do that. It's just sort of said like hey, you got to build rapport or methods and techniques and understanding.

Speaker 1: 7:33

Like you said, the human behavior element is integral to everything that you do, but it's not typically what I've seen, not broken down into a very usable format.

Speaker 1: 7:42

You still have to go out there and do it, which I get it. You have to practice a skill set, but it's like you said, either it's developed over a career or a lifetime and then you have all this sort of implicit knowledge of how you do things, or it's taught in some manner and you kind of forget it because you don't really add to that and people forget how valuable some of that stuff is. So I'm kind of curious to see what you think of different training that's worked and that hasn't worked and things that you've seen work, especially when it comes to the human behavior element. We don't have to stay there, you can use whatever experiences you want, but I know it was so integral to what you did as a case officer, like kind of give the listeners a little bit of an understanding of what you mean when you talk, when you say like hey, this is like one of the most important things that we don't really focus on what I was teaching, or maybe what you and I were teaching.

Speaker 2: 8:43

Yes, it was like I guess what the human behavior podcast here is the majority of what you speak about is the human relationship. You know, I went through either at a great time or a pretty terrible time because the way of doing things, by the time I was ready to do things, were already set in stone, so it didn't really matter what you had learned on your own or how self-reliable you were. It was set in stone. And what they were going to train you at, our training at the farm was kind of already molded out, because we were in the eighth or ninth year of the war by that time, and so this is what has worked in the past. So we're going to hope it continues to and this is what we're going to do for the next decade. And you know, just even getting out of that training, which is top notch, it really is, and I learned a ton and it had changed you as a person. And you know, just even getting out of that training, which is top notch, it really is, yeah, and I learned a ton and it changed you as a person, but it still even then felt antiquated if it were a year old, if that makes sense to you guys. You know like things have changed so drastically. This isn't 1973 Moscow. This isn't 1973 Moscow. So no offense to you if you've done that and you did a brush pass in St Petersburg. How do I get to the point I don't care, I'm going to Kandahar. We don't do that there, so I don't care.

Speaker 2: 10:19

And then the other question was is there any through line or any similarities to just doing the job as a whole, meaning espionage? Like yeah, I want to go to the war zones and I want to go to the Middle East. So why are my instructors talking to me about what they did in Beijing? And again, just out of frustration, not anger, because I'm still very appreciative of what I learned and was taught. But you do get the mentality of who effing cares, like I don't care, like I don't have time for that man, like tell me what it's going to be to talk to a dude in the Taliban. And reason I bring up that example and I'd said at the beginning either it was for the best or worst is because at least there was something to build upon and a lot of people were focused on it, uh, that that was helpful, which then made me wonder, well, what the hell kind of training are the people who are actually going to patient and getting? And are they getting the same stuff I'm getting from the guy from 1973? Because even that same city, great, different population, yeah, the same people, different government in fact. So, like I feel it probably is like that. Still, you guys would know better than me.

Speaker 2: 11:38

I got out of, uh, pretty much doing everything government related six or seven years ago. But here we are. I guess the perfect ending here for me to stop talking is I was in charge of the Syrian program a decade ago. I know what we were doing because I was the one deciding what we were going to do and we did nothing. I won't go much further than that. I can write about it, but, uh, as of like yesterday, it's a totally different scenario. So where are you training those, those kids who are, you know, going to go in the field? Because I was taught one thing we did nothing. Did you teach them something I didn't know about? And that whole situation in syria right now is so bizarre to me I can't even fathom what really happened, because you know, I know that the dictator didn't just step to the side. No, no, yeah, I won't. I won't go into that. I'm not trying to talk about that specifically at all, but you know and it will.

Speaker 1: 12:43

It's topical and relevant, and I know this is the other thing, I guess, because I want to give you, have you kind of explain a little bit to our listeners, like what a case officer actually does and what your job is, versus because there's still a lot of not great information out there about this stuff, which rightly, I mean in the sense that, like you know, how are you going to find out what people really do?

Speaker 1: 13:08

You know, and there's a lot of people that are out there are talking heads and you know maybe they were a great analyst or something like that, but they didn't really do some of the groundwork or they were administrator and they were high up somewhere, and that's kind of a completely different role from what you did on the ground as a case officer. So, and and again, you know too, just so I don't want you to get anything that you don't want to talk about, because there's different reasons, not necessarily that it's like, hey, this thing's still classified or we still can't talk about it. It's more, just, there's still people that don't like to have people talking about things and they get angry and they get upset and they're still in positions of power. So I'll leave it at that. But but can you? Can you give for our audience just like a basic understanding of what you were doing when you were in Afghanistan, or because you read a lot about it and left a boom?

Speaker 2: 13:59

It's an incredible book, but give everyone a kind of an understanding of what it is that you do and what a case officer you know that's who's designated to recruit spies for the US government. That really is what it is, and kudos to the agency because they do put that online. I don't know why the searching stops there when you can find out my pant size online somehow through somebody who wrote about it 20 years ago, is online somehow through somebody who wrote about it 20 years ago. But you know, I'll even have people ask me questions on Reddit or Instagram or whatever. Hey, you know, I want to be a super spy too, or blah, blah, blah. You get to asking. Well, so you want to be a case officer, and they don't know what I'm talking about.

Speaker 2: 14:42

And or I'll reference uh, I'm a case officer, or somebody introduced me as such, because that's the title of my book, and I'll find that even the person introducing me doesn't really know what that title means. And you know, for us who do understand is kind of the same thing as going oh, he was an 11, bravo. The three of us know what you're talking about, but a civilian might not, and so I kind of think that's unfortunately the same way it is with the agency at least, is no one's ever typed in 11 Bravo to figure out what that meant in English. No one's ever really followed up with case officer or they saw what it was and like oh yeah, no one's ever really followed up with case officer or they saw what it wasn't, like oh yeah, and kind of just dismissed it.

Speaker 2: 15:41

Because you know, I wrote that book, started writing it 10, 11 years ago and no one knew what it meant and especially no one knew what the called left of bang. Just FYI, their manual is left of bang. I didn't want to like fabricate and take that straight from them and was like that's clever Left of bang. I like that. I'm going to call this book left of boom.

Speaker 1: 15:58

Now I see, like tech, he's holding conferences in San Franciscoisco the left of boom conference okay, so real quick on that, that was san diego and we were at that conference one year sitting in the room. Let me get this. So guess what they were referencing. So before the army had it doug, it was with the marine corps and the marine corps combat hunter program. They called lots of bang and so after talking about it, I had to go up to the guy who was like one of the leaders of the conference to be like do you see the gentleman right there and who's going to speak later today, who says mr greg williams? They're like yeah, I'm like, he wrote the combat hunter program that you're all talking about and he had no idea. This guy had no idea, which I always tell greg like that's a testament to your work, meaning it's, it's, it's gone on so far exactly that.

Speaker 1: 16:46

People don't even know where it came from, so like. But he's like sitting in the room going like are they gonna introduce me now or something? I thought I was speaking later, yeah well then, this is funny actually greg.

Speaker 3: 16:57

Yeah, when your book came out.

Speaker 3: 16:59

Doug, if I might interrupt briefly, when your book came out it spawned one of the biggest arguments because we were talking about the term left, the bank, which was later stolen by everybody as well. So you know you're onto something good and it was very, very well respected, doug, that you chose left, the boom Cause you, you were talking about something completely different, but you were talking to a bunch of operators that actually knew and had similar experiences, right. So it was much the same as the fight with the Marine Corps war fighting lab, using a term atmospherics, and they go no, that's the air trapped around the earth, and it's like, no, that's how you read a room. And so we got into a fight and your book was the center point of that fight. So I hope there was a spike in in I guess that would have been 2006 for your book sales.

Speaker 3: 17:46

And and uh, very briefly, brian, talking about that, I want Doug to get back to his point. Doug is talking about a period of time during glow, what money? Where anything went and and what happened is. Back then you had the, the sniper manual that hadn't been updated since Vietnam in the fall of.

Speaker 3: 18:03

Saigon, you had QAQC folks showing up to me on a range and going you can't teach that way because it's never been done that way before. You had KOCAL, the Center for Advanced Operational Culture and Learning that I butted heads with in 2006, where they go. No, it's much better to teach these people snippets of the language because we're going to talk about culture and prepare them for missions. And then they had so many different set of standards that there was nobody. When I went to JBAT, it was like the person you were talking to is likely going to be from America, sent there to work there, rather than somebody that was local, and we'd ask can we interview a local? And they go well, fuck, no, that's out there. We're not going out there. You remember those?

Speaker 2: 18:45

days so.

Speaker 3: 18:46

I want to make sure that when people put in context who Doug is, that they understand the operational constraints that you had when you were working, literally swinging 16 ounce gloves in an arena.

Speaker 2: 19:01

Nobody had fought uh, uh in in a long time.

Speaker 2: 19:03

Yeah, no, I appreciate that. Thanks for telling me that. Sad to say, I'm not surprised, you know, because it's not the first and it's not just with tech or other government, you know, expos or whatever. I think I saw somebody. Well, I saw a couple of TV shows have their sitcom, like that episode name left of boom. There's some silly show on CBS it's called Navy Seals come home or whatever the fuck it's called, and their final episode was called Left of Boom. And yes, it was.

Speaker 2: 19:42

Somebody in comments goes hey, marine, hey, marine here. So brian, you like it. He goes, uh, hey, marine here. Uh, don't you think it's kind of weird that this is your last and final episode? Yeah, you're calling it left of boom.

Speaker 2: 19:57

Shouldn't this have been the first episode? No one responds and like there was no, nothing funny, I'm sure. Like I clicked the heart like 12 times, which meant six times. I unliked it and I'm like liking things works just once is enough, and uh, but yeah, I was like that guy's got a great point. It should have been episode one. But now that phrase has kind of been a throwaway term and I don't use it to like promote my book other than to say it's just another example of something that is now hearsay. To teach Brian, uh, kind of now, is just something that is talked about and maybe it's still taught to a degree. Um, but you know, I have friends who have just kind of gotten into it and it's so different, I get it, the war's over and all of that. But this type of training, when you really think about it, it doesn't have to be used for espionage. It can be used in real world everyday life.

Speaker 2: 21:09

As a civilian every day. And, yeah, you can become a terrible person with this type of knowledge or you can try and do something good. And one of the greatest quotes I heard is from, like, jalen Rose, a basketball player. He's talking about Michael Jordan and he's like this guy is so intense and was so great that if he wasn't the best basketball player in the world, fine, he would have been the world's best serial killer. Like anything I put his mind to. He's going to destroy and he's going to be the best and that's why he was good. So, um, yeah, left of boom as it stands now. Uh, I used to want to email these people and be like, hey, do you want a keynote speaker? You know like I'll sell my book. And now I'm just like oh, whatever, can this be another final episode of seals crying at you and they'll bring you a cake.

Speaker 3: 22:12

They'll they'll have you on at the reunion episode and bring you a cake and have you blow out the candles.

Speaker 3: 22:17

You see, that's that's exactly the argument, doug, first of all, and, and brian, uh, I, I'd love to know how you and Doug met and hit it off, because I only heard and then read your white paper that you wrote on it, doug. But that's exactly the point, doug, when you start going back and uncovering facts, which really screws with people's stories, and you see how long you've been in the game. That's the problem, because when you see the other people that are coming up with these great ideas and you look and they go well in 2015 or 2018, it's like we were in a game long before that. So you better go back a little bit when you look at it. Would you mind giving us sort of a glimpse at how you and the 0-3-11 in the room Marines use the 11 Bravo as 0-3-11,? So I just want to throw a good answer the cranny in the room, the Marines used their 11 Bravo as 0-3-11, so I just want to throw a good answer.

Speaker 3: 23:07

The cranny in the room.

Speaker 2: 23:09

How did you guys?

Speaker 3: 23:10

link up. How did you meet and how did you not kill each other the first time you met?

Speaker 2: 23:17

Yeah, go ahead no actually.

Speaker 1: 23:20

I think it'd be better for the listeners to hear your side of events, because I think it'd be funny for the listeners to hear your side of events, because I think it'd be funny.

Speaker 2: 23:27

Well, I can make it funny. I'll be more complimentary. Your podcast, not mine. I think I said it when we spoke over the weekend, which again had been probably a decade since we had talked, and I said, hey, I won't say where, don't worry, since we had talked. And I said, hey, you, I won't say where, don't worry, but we both got assigned to a military base to teach it. I don't know, do you still teach that course, that place that we were talking about in the south?

Speaker 1: 23:55

no, no, it's um, we, we, we still teach and train stuff.

Speaker 2: 24:00

So it's evolved since then and obviously we're on our own, not with that previous organization, right well, but yeah so the previous contractor had both of our names on file and hired us both on as instructors and I had been doing it for about a year and a half after I had left the agency, almost exclusively with jsoc out of Tampa Right, and kind of covering I don't know what you want to say their operations, almost like an auditor it was. I don't know, I didn't really enjoy it. But then I went and taught that course with Brian and there was, as I said, a slew of guys there were like four or five of you guys and I was like who, who are they Like? Where did you get them? Because no, for real, everyone I had met before had been the same like structured kind of guy, like it was. You had to be that. So they wanted a chief of station which is a boss in CIA terms, the guy who's in charge of that country espionage. They wanted a chief of station who had 20 plus years and that was about it. That was pretty much the creds that they wanted.

Speaker 2: 25:20

And then, you know, I was this guy with only seven years officially working for the agency. So I was out of place. But then I saw Brian and like three or four other guys who the same company had hired, and I was like, well, they got to feel out of place too. So I don't even think Brian and I I don't think we were teaching like the same group of students at the time. I was with um, you know who, who we spoke about our names and and, um, we just started talking and I was like, man, I want to work on your guys's team and do more stuff with you because, number one, let's be honest, you, you guys, were my age and, like you, had seen the same stuff. I had seen and had been to the same places. And finally, I was hearing somebody teach a course, not about Beijing and not about Moscow, because that was apparently all the agency had ever done, because that's all their instructors talked about. But that's what they were told to talk about, because, for some, some reason, whoever was in charge 0506 had decided this is the important stuff that's going to impress our students. Tell them about how you were a spy, you know, in the cold war.

Speaker 2: 26:36

I'm like how about you get somebody who says I just came back from kandahar and it's hot anyway and go with that, you know, because it's not the same thing, uh, but yeah, that's how you and I met Brian and then we just started getting assigned to similar contracts without knowing it. We, you know, we were talking about what the score was in a football game on a Sunday. And then Monday she'll be like oh, you're on this one too nice, yeah. And we didn't really. I don't know why. We just we were just in a different place, we were younger and didn't really care what we where, we were going on Monday, uh. But yeah, I think I came across courses with you for a matter of two years at least, uh, before I stopped and, you know, wrote, yeah, but um, yeah, that that was um the best, uh a most flattering, uh a description of us linking up at that place, that that you could that's the one that's going to go on record.

Speaker 3: 27:42

Well, I'll say that the heavily redacted version exactly so I have my black marker ready. It's funny when you meet the agency guys nobody has a highlighter unless it's black yeah, but they don't use it anyway, because they're not exactly.

Speaker 3: 28:00

None of them can write like the marines. Now that's. That was nice. The idea is, what I liked specifically is that you guys used what you were taught and included your creative spirit and personal experiences, and that's what came across and that's why the training worked, because you can go to the spy museum in Washington DC and learn everything you want to know about China and the Cold War on a tour that you guide yourself and just plug in a key and listen and history is fascinating.

Speaker 3: 28:35

But that doesn't make you a better case agent. That doesn't help you develop human sources. Merely language is not enough to befriend somebody and get them to work for you as a confidential informant and and you know it's it's not that different. War is very different, but cop work is like being deployed every day for your entire career, right, something like that. Or Rico, or uh, uh, you know, uh, osf caper as a cop, uh was what really uh prepared me that in the military for doing the work that I did, and it was different at the time only because it wasn't that lockstep. This is the way you do things, the check in the box training, and so I love the fact that when they briefed me on that place that you were going. They said hey, send a couple of your best guys. This is going to be transformational and I think your work and the work that Brian did really were key to making that transformation.

Speaker 2: 29:31

Nice Thanks. I appreciate you saying that. I could tell too. You know, as an instructor Brian and I were talking about this on the weekend I get it, it's a way to make money and it can be a career. But come on, man, if you really just don't care and you're just doing it as a job, go do something else for real, because your job's important.

Speaker 2: 29:59

It's really, really important when you're at this type of level, talking about these types of operations, that very few people are even cleared to do, not that they can or can't do, they're not allowed to do, they're not allowed to even know about. So when you're talking about something that obviously the government thinks is so important, they make it that secret then if you have the privilege of being the instructor and teaching that course, man, if you're not taking it seriously, you know, you expect these guys to and you guys know I mean the students that I'm sure you guys have now if they're anywhere close to the operators that I was teaching that you got about three seconds and that lasts the course. And if you're dicking off and pretend land for three seconds or you're faking the funk, which they're going to know immediately, you're, you're done and you know. That's why, too, eventually, right at towards the end of my defense time, I was allowed to pick who I was going to teach courses with, because the person who was assigning me as an instructor and I got along real well.

Speaker 2: 31:13

And they would ask me, hey, is there anybody in particular? And I was like, let me see who you got. And uh, you know, there were people on there that I had worked with before and I was like, okay, who are we teaching? Okay, oh, 372s. Uh, yeah, they don't really want to talk about belarus, so why, like, what do you? That's not where they're going, so it just doesn't make sense. Uh, anyway, I'm sure I could bitch about that stuff Time, but anything specific about, yeah, whatever you guys.

Speaker 1: 31:50

Well, I kind of kind of want to get into a little bit about your, your work in Afghanistan, because you did. You know, I mean you took down some pretty big IED networks and did a whole bunch of amazing stuff and you know you were kind of a younger dude doing it all. And what people don't know too is when you're, you know you're at CIA, like you have a lot of autonomy, you have a ton of like what you like you kind of make your own path, make your own mission. In a sense, like you saw the report still have these directives and things like that, but but meaning you have a lot of freedom to go.

Speaker 1: 32:26

This is what we're going to do and this is how we can do this. And but I'm curious, man cause you, you know, you I think you speak or spoke PASH to um and you know kind of had to work with these folks and get to know them. So what you know can, can you walk us through sort of that process and how it worked and what you had to do to get in with people and establish relationships and then build in a network that allowed you to take down some really, really big stuff that was killing a lot of US troops. I mean, that's the thing.

Speaker 1: 32:55

It's like these are bad dudes and they're getting a lot of this, but meaning you had to go. You had to go to these meetings. You had to talk to people, talk to village elders, talk to random people Like, how did you do that, especially growing up? You're a Midwestern guy, I'm from the Midwest, so is Greg. You go there and I know you get all the training and you get language training. You have some experience, but it's such a different world in a sense. So how did you find that way to assimilate and build those relationships? What worked for you?

Speaker 2: 33:26

uh, well, I would say that's something most relevant to what you guys are doing right now. Uh, and something you can't forget the agency is still part of the federal government so it still has all the federal restrictions it.

Speaker 2: 33:44

It's not quite as restrictive as the military can be, especially when it comes to rules and playing by them and enforcing them. And you guys knew I was going to be honest when I came on here, so I won't disguise if I found a problem with some things. But one thing I certainly noticed more than anything, both in the field and as an instructor, was how well and how much the military students do follow the rules, but almost to a flaw. And I get it. The rules are there for a reason and they're to protect you and others and so on and so forth. But there comes a time where everybody's different and this person's different and they don't fall within those guidelines, they fall outside of everything you've ever seen or heard, because no one has ever met anyone like that before and no one has taken the time to write about that type of individual before. So you have no background, you have no manual, you have no book on how to talk about that type of individual before. So you have no background, you have no manual, you have no book on how to talk to that type of guy. Well, again, this is personal experience only because I don't want to dismiss anybody for doing the work. I found that if it wasn't something that had been done in the past especially with military guys I was working with from different elements they just did not want to touch it. Not that they didn't care, because they cared a lot, but it was like, yeah, we don't, that's, that's your bag. It was always like that's, the CIA can do that, and I'm like, no, but that's what you do for a living. You do that every night. This is just a different name and a different location. And it was like we don't want to, we don't want to even know about it, because there were no guidelines. No one had said, yes, this is how you do that. And so for me, that was kind of the same thing.

Speaker 2: 35:38

And again, just through what I went through I don't know how the other case officers had it, but I did tour the entire country and been to most of the bases because I did speak the language and there was no manual prior. There's nothing to reference, so we're not going to do it. There was no think for yourself do what you think's right. You be the guy who writes how to do it then, but you have to be the first to do it. That's like anything in life. That can be business, that can be a relationship, that can be field work, espionage totally different level but I feel that both case officers and guys in different elements with the military conducting espionage or whatsoever shied away is putting it lightly from being the first to do anything.

Speaker 2: 36:39

Because of my career I won't get promoted, you know, as a case officer on the GS scale, or I won't get a higher rank, or I'll get demoted, or I'll get disciplined. And yeah, you don't want to be a rule breaker, you don't just want to go full auto and run into a room Like duh. But there comes a time where you have to go. Well, there's nothing there. There's nothing that says I can, but there's nothing that says I can but there's nothing that says I can't. So now is the time to determine do I take the risk? Because it doesn't say I can, it doesn't say I can't, so I'm going to do it. And if I complete it and do it well, they'll go.

Speaker 2: 37:21

We always knew you could do that. And now that is how it's done. Write it up and that's how everyone. That is how it's done, write it up and that's how everyone else would do it. But if you F up, it will not be written about. And again, this is just my experience in agency. That's going to go eyes only because you F'd up. So very, very few people, a handful of people, are going to see it that it ever even happened and you're going to get put on the bench.

Speaker 2: 37:48

Well, as a case officer, knowing those are the repercussions of me sitting here with there is no can, there is no can't. Should I do it? If I don't do it, I can probably still get promoted and I won't have to sit on the bench. There's nothing else here. This is just well. If you fail, you're going to jail, but if you complete it, it could be good. If you don't, it's here. So I'll just not do anything and keep towing the line.

Speaker 2: 38:17

I don't know if it's still that way. I was doing this 10 years ago. I know I sound like a broken record continuing to repeat that, but anyone who's maybe fast forwarded on me in the past hears me continuously say it, because what I always hated was when somebody, again from 1973, was telling me this is how it's done. No, that's how it was done. So that's how it was done for me. I don't know if that's still how it is done, but that was a serious problem and a serious issue for me, not having anything in my background and kind of not wanting to be the guy to create it. The book that I wrote is all about me creating it. That's essentially.

Speaker 3: 39:04

Doug, if I can jump in for a second here. You're a fascinating guy and you have to understand because you don't sometimes how rare you actually are, because the and I'll tell you a story. So this will exemplify exactly what I mean. When people dial 911, they think the cop that's showing up was an extra in the movie Heat. They think that he's flipped the tires, fired full auto, all X-ring shot group stuff, been on the gosh damn bubble his entire career. And that's not true and we've worked.

Speaker 3: 39:36

There's not been an alphabet agency in our country where any of the MOI or MODs from other countries that I've worked with that was that guy. They're so rare that when you meet them you know you're in the presence of somebody that's an operator that's different than everybody else, and so a countless FBI agents they're on the glass with and you look at them and you go what? And you're going wait a minute, I thought you were trained by the FBI or other agencies or whatever. And so I developed this horror story mentality because I was constantly looking for that guy. Who is this guy? Who is the one that's behind the curtains pulling the levers? There is no Oz right, and what happens is when you do find them. When you find them in Iraq or Afghanistan or anywhere else in the world, you cherish them and then you build a relationship with that person that lasts a lifetime, because you know that they're the doer, they're not just the talker, they're not just the person that's getting promoted through the ranks and everything that. Brian told me about you and then when I read and then when I asked people about it and everything else, you were that guy. So the cool thing is that you're in a rare group that was on a bench that was continuously put in to play the game and not a lot of people do that, even though they have credentials. I know a lot of people that had combat time and they never left a FOB and thank God they were there because they volunteered for their service and thank God they were a member of that. But you know what, sometimes those credentials stretched a little thin, because now the war is over and now some of those people are dead.

Speaker 3: 41:06

So we can talk about anything we want, but we devoted ourselves to make sure that that field craft lives on. It's not about me or my name or Brian or his name or the Arcadia brand. The idea is we have a certain set of skills that you can develop that help interpersonal relationships anywhere in the world. And if you can talk to somebody, if I can kneel down, sit down, squat down with you and we can talk about something common for just a few minutes. It's amazing how many doors that opens, but you got to see that in the most extreme environments on the face of the planet. So so tell us about that. Tell us how you were able to apply not just the training from the farm and all that other stuff, but your intrinsic knowledge about humans. How did you co-opt that?

Speaker 2: 41:55

Yeah, well, in that regard, I would say it definitely took time. I won't lie on that. The first place I was sent to was on a six-month tour and it probably took me three or four months to really get the gist of what was going on, which, by the way, is still moving pretty fast. Yes, get the gist of what was going on, which, by the way, is still moving pretty fast. Yes, let us not forget afghanistan's, a totally different country than the united states. Okay, like, there's a lot of getting used to, and just because you speak the language, it does not mean shit. Okay, so, and I was taught the wrong dialect, so I had to relearn that, which was fun, um, but relearn that, which was fun, um, but realizing all the differences, okay, sure, probably, even after that first six month rip, I still didn't necessarily and admittedly now, know what was going on. Okay, with the people and the folks that I had talked to at my first assignment, uh, I thought were important Because, again, there was nothing to tell me they were or they weren't, nobody else was meeting them. So maybe this guy is or he isn't, and I expected my authorities to tell me continue to meet that guy, recruit that guy or that guy isn't shit, dump him. But nobody was really saying anything and it was very wide open. And so I think, after that first tour coming home and now I'm with my girlfriend and my buddies and civilians and I'm like you know, in reality it's not about the differences, it's about what's the same Great comment, the same shit that I just did to get my buddy here to get me another beer. Actually, not minus. That beer is what I could be doing with that guy, that Talib. Hey, you know, I'm going to try that when I get back on my next assignment. So, kind of seeing those differences and realizing, yeah, but they're still humans, you know, like not to get scientific, but you know their brains still operate the same way. They obviously think differently, but they still manufacture the same in the same way. They obviously think differently but they still manufacture the same and the same direction. And so it was okay.

Speaker 2: 44:24

This is just now inserting the proper word and substituting it for what I would have said to an American friend. Into now, this guy is my friend and what is it the thing that he likes? Just enter that in. My buddy wants another beer. This guy wants what? Put it right there. Figure out what that is, that he wants. Everybody wants something. Okay, probably money, great, we've all heard that. But I think it was just the similarities of realizing okay, either he's happy or he's sad, he's excited or he's scared. That's it. It's one of the four that's going to be your basis of any emotion. So which is it? You know, it's the same thing I do with my girlfriend Is she happy or is she mad right now, like what's going on, you know just yeah, but you'll never understand that.

Speaker 2: 45:23

There's no amount of training and awards on. That'll prepare you for that type of relationship.

Speaker 3: 45:25

So you're still working those steps. Yeah, I didn't want to call bullshit on that for anybody that thinks yeah right yeah, I'd be harnessing the emperor title. If I knew that's great.

Speaker 2: 45:37

But no, in conclusion, like it was the similarities in that this guy and you get taught a lot of what I'm saying. Like you got to find out what they want. You got to know what makes them tick. I get all of that but also how I make you understand that I know that's what you want and if it is just money, not make you feel uncomfortable about it. We probably the three of us have had friends in the past who maybe kind of, were asking for something more than we wanted to give. Probably we're talking about money and you know you can tell they're asking something that's making them uncomfortable to ask.

Speaker 2: 46:21

So now, what can I do to show this foreigner, this Afghan, my confidence in asking him to do this thing? Well, he's got to think he's my friend and I got to portray that, even if I think he's a piece of crap. And how did I do it with my buddy to get another beer? Well, I'm going to utilize that and I made that guy happy. Need to make this guy happy. Insert what he wants were doing in the 13th century.

Speaker 2: 47:01

I looked at it and said this is 2011. This guy sees the same commercials I get. He gets indian tv, which is british tv, which is the same television that I get. I know he knows what I know as far as pop culture and stuff. It doesn't matter that he's in the taliban, he still has a tv. And you learn that and you're like whoa the? The Taliban has TVs. Yes, they do. Okay.

Speaker 2: 47:21

And so then just seeing things like that and opening your eyes and going it's not that hard, it just took the patience and the time to learn. This guy is still a human and he still wants something and needs something and, for better or worse, if it's money, brother, I will not hesitate and I will be confident when I present that to you, because I got a printing press back there and I will get you what you need if you deserve it. But yeah, that's kind of how just with my time in Afghanistan went much different in Syria, much different in Syria. But building those relationships, I'm sure you guys teach the finer points of how you do that, but it was looking at it the same way. I'm going to treat this guy exactly like I treat Austin, my buddy.

Speaker 2: 48:13

That's so good, and he's going to feel like he's Austin and we're about to watch the movie Heat together. Yeah, that's so much. Which you referenced that earlier. That's one of my favorites.

Speaker 1: 48:27

And you know a lot of people like they think we give some principles, like to start out at one of our training, like a training course, right? So we just did like a three-day one with law enforcement back in your old stomping grounds out back in Indiana, literally last course, right, so we just did like a three-day one with law enforcement back in your old stomping ground south back in Indiana, literally last week, right. And so you know, when we go, you know one of our first principles we go. People are the same all over the world and you know we give examples and go. This is what you mean.

Speaker 1: 48:53

You know, everywhere you go, people play games. You know you turn into an asshole when you're a teenager. You know you, you you're sad when someone dies. Or you know you wear white to a wedding, like there's just these, and people kind of go yeah, okay, I get it, it's like no. And then the follow-up, the so what to? That is actually what you said, is the. So you know, look for the similarities, not the differences. And everyone's like, okay, yeah, I get it, it's no, you have to go out there and practice it. That you know that chud, who wakes up at the crack of noon every day that you deal with, like it's the same thing and it's even at a simpler level, so don't overcomplicate it. And because everyone's got a job, a mission, a role, what responsibilities, what they're supposed to do, it's we get so focused on our tactics, techniques and procedures, what these policies are, what I'm here to do, it's like take a minute right, figure out what's going on where this person's at, and and and see you know what, what you can do and connect at a human level, cause the rest of that stuff you can learn how to do.

Speaker 1: 49:56

In the rest of the stuff, with time it'll, it'll happen, but we're not focusing on just the basic elements of what's happening. What is the dynamic here, in this situation, at this time, right now? Which is also why we miss huge, huge pre-event indicators. We miss everything because we're so mission focused, we're trying to get done what we need to do. And then it's like yeah, but the world and the situation, this person is screaming at you right now and you're missing everything because you didn't just follow some basic principles of hey, people the same all over the world, let's look for the similarities, not the differences. And then because because if there are differences, then they're going to stand out even more.

Speaker 1: 50:32

Right, if you go, wait a minute, this isn't the same situation. This isn't just a guy trying to make a buck. Oh shit, I might be in trouble right now or I might have put myself in a bad situation. You can miss those things because you're not kind of sticking to those basic concepts. You're like all right, am I? I think, because we're sort of primed as that. Like well, they got a different tribal structure and they wear different clothes and a different religion and a different this.

Speaker 1: 51:11

It's like yeah but the abrahamic religions are kind of similar. So there's that, like you know, uh sure they don't wear the same clothes, but in in some ways that may. But we, there's that, like you know, uh sure they don't wear the same clothes, but in in some ways that may. But we used to here, like you know, a hundred years ago, you go out and you go to a business everyone's wearing a suit and it's almost the same exact one with okay, you might have a little bit different feather in your cap, but you're wearing the same thing. You got a different color pocket square, but everyone's wearing that same thing. You got a different color pocket square, but everyone's wearing that same thing. So it wasn't always that different.

Speaker 1: 51:42

And so when you come down to those basic elements of human behavior and just how the world operates, it makes it easier to understand if you understand the basic fundamental rules. We bring up stuff about physics sometimes because it's not to show like, oh, look at all this stuff going on, or look at how many different scientific words I know. It's like, look, there's underlying rules to everything and if you're breaking those rules, you're never going to get done. Or you don't recognize what those underlying rules are, you're never going to see the situation for what it is, and that's kind of what we try to get people to do, but without that, um, sort of those experiences where you've actually been able to do that in those places that allowed you access to people and now a network and now you're able to do some amazing stuff. If you don't see that, I think a lot of times it's hard for people to really look at the world that way. Does that make sense?

Speaker 3: 52:37

you know what I'm saying and and I would say I thought you're coming in there- doug I I I think that you again elevated yourself to a very uh small, what I would call an elite group of folks, because every time I hear somebody that says, hey, wait a minute, let's look for the similarities, rather the differences, I immediately uh fall in love with them. Uh, because that's exactly how this gets done. And you know, we've all seen a car where you drive it from the right side rather than the left side, and we've all been in countries where they drive on the left side of the road rather than the right side of the road. But when it comes down to the science, it's an internal combustion engine and we get it, and there's a gas tank and we know how to fill it. And there's a gas tank and we know how to fill it. And there's a gear select and we figured that out in the ignition. Maybe you press the floor or maybe you press a button, but it's the same thing.

Speaker 3: 53:27

And so when we look at like, very briefly, last week I told the story of Spin Boldak, where I knelt down to talk to a girl we were looking for propane bombs and she spoke fluent English.

Speaker 3: 53:38

And I looked at her and I said how is it that you speak fluent English and she goes the Brits were here for 15 years, mate and I go oh my God, that's amazing and she schooled me right.

Speaker 3: 53:48

But you, as a case officer on the ground, had to understand, just like you did in your relationship and with your own family, that our vulnerabilities define us.

Speaker 3: 54:05

And when you open up the trust gate and start speaking to people even though you had an ulterior motive because it was your job to befriend these people there were times that you forgot that and were a friend, which what I mean by that is like if you can't truly want to trust me and be my buddy, I can't be an effective guy, because it's just like being a gigolo. Yeah, I'm going to say these three things to get laid every time and buy you this and that, and after a while it's going to get around that you're the bar whore, I got it. So that works when you're trying to build a confidential informant as well. So there were times that you had to let down your guard to let them know a little bit about you so you could find out more about them and be able to exploit that. Could you elaborate on that a little bit, because I'm sure you had that experience many times.

Speaker 2: 54:45

Oh, yeah, and look, I think I said it in the book, I'll say it now. There were assets that I had who were in the Taliban, that, however you want to cut this up and dice it, that I did care about meaning and you can go. How could you care about terrorists? Uh, I didn't want to see the guy die, you know. And he flipped and he realized what he had been doing was wrong. And now he was working for the U S government, he signed the paperwork and he was turning over his old organization for me because he trusted me. So, yeah, I mean, it's hard to say no, I could never possibly care about anyone like that. No, I did.

Speaker 2: 55:30

And there were several guys who, like I, wanted to protect them and I didn't want to just leave them, you know, and pop smoke. Well, hey, thanks for what you did. Now go back to your village by, you know. So that's tough. Uh, and to some of those guys, yeah, to get them to tell me the most important stuff, sometimes they needed to at least be told something about me, whether it was true or not. And if it wasn't, you got to be careful with that, because unless you're a really good liar and can tell a story, it's going to come across phony, and they're going to see it and be like this guy's a hack, here we go again. So I probably wouldn't recommend that If you're going to tell somebody something significant about you that's private, well, they better have earned it, or you're just kind of giving it away for free. So, yeah, anytime that I got to that level, though, it really made me reevaluate the relationship both internally between me and that other person and as well as what I was writing, because whatever I wrote in cable traffic is really what happened. It's not what really happened. What really happened, because that's what I said happened and I was the only one there. So that's what everyone's going to read. That that's how this went down, and you know that's this whole bag of hammers too.

Speaker 2: 57:01

What do I write? What's going to get me in trouble? How do I stay out of this? How do I advance this? This guy is in the taliban, but I know that if we stick with him, he'll get us to here, and we want to be here. But now we're here and this guy can do it, but just because of some words that we're putting after his name, I can't talk to him. You know, right?

Speaker 2: 57:25

Um, so a similarity is I recognize that with a lot of you know taliban guys in particular, I went in with the understanding that they're horrible, they hate all Americans and they will kill you. And some were definitely like that. But other guys were like no man, I hate it here, you know, and they're just like it sucks. Like what do you want me to say? Like it sucks, I'm broke. You know. Like I eat grapes every day, that's all I can afford. Like this sucks. I eat grapes every day, that's all I can afford. Like this sucks. And they'd open up and tell you that and they think you know we had a misunderstanding about you know Afghans in Southeastern Afghanistan into another country. That's redacted. I'm guessing you could figure out how to travel the way East is redacted. Go right on a map there.

Speaker 2: 58:22

Yeah exactly Now. You found it, but, yeah, you know, we were told that those are the worst types of people. Have you ever asked them what they think about you? Have you ever asked them what they're preconditionally informed about you? Well, they don't have a portfolio like I got on them. They have television. So what's television saying to them? Well, it's saying one of the same thing it says to teenagers here Everybody in the CIA is Jason Bourne or James Bond.

Speaker 2: 59:00

So when I didn't come in and suit and tie, they're like you're not a spy because I look like this sitting down, you know. Or I dress in local attire, and they'd be like that makes no sense. You're supposed to come out of a helicopter and then you're supposed to like shoot everyone and then have a martini and we talk, no, you know. So that was something you had to get through too, and for what it is worth I don't know if I wrote about it or not I know I've definitely spoken about it.

Speaker 2: 59:32

Really, taking into consideration what this person already thinks about you is something that I think you should do in real life, to the extent you can as well, and I have, especially in relationships. Say, for example, meeting my girlfriend's friends for the first time. What must they think about me? And what has happened recently between her and I that she may or may not have talked to them about? Do they know more about me than I want them to? Yeah, you know, what do they in fact already know about me, or think about me, you know, maybe they haven't heard a whole lot, but they Googled me and they think this and just having that idea in my head instead of well, I'm a nice guy, they'll see I'm a nice guy, I'm nice to her. He's probably told him I'm the greatest ever. Like stubbed my toe at her house yesterday and that was a 12 hour argument.

Speaker 2: 1:00:42

That's what they think about me, that's what they're thinking about you right now, and they're not happy. So now and then I'll shut up. That is a perfect situation. Leading right into what I was doing with syria, there was a certain individual who later ran for president but did not win you can probably guess who who had a big leadership position in the united states government in 2012, who was making promises to the turkish people about no-fly zones and things like this that were directly relevant to what I was doing on a daily basis.

Speaker 2: 1:01:18

And when you say those things, well then people are going to expect those things. So it started me walking into the room knowing ahead of time. I got to diffuse that and there's going to be 30 questions about where's the air support? Well, your leadership said we were getting it yesterday and then it never happened. Oh boy, but yeah, I think if I say anything worthwhile there, it's to consider what somebody already thinks about you, whether they're right or wrong. Just because you think you're a nice guy or you're cool, uh, they may think the exact opposite. So be prepared for that if you can, and handle that. First. Get that out of the way before you try selling them on the nice guy thing.

Speaker 1: 1:02:12

That's a really really good point. And in your experience too. You're talking about something that happens at some strategic level, that some elected official or politician't matter. I'm, you know, wearing that uniform, in a sense, or I'm the the, the person exemplifying this entire organization or mission, and you're just one person and you're going fuck uh, how do I walk this back and still get done what I need to get done?

Speaker 2: 1:02:56

yeah, that you that you know.

Speaker 1: 1:02:58

That's. You know, you, you're. Actually a lot of the stuff that you talk about is is so relevant to the law enforcement folks that we work with and what their role is, because it's the same thing. It's like you can be the nicest guy, the greatest person, have an amazing record and career, but then you show up and you, but you're wearing the same uniform and someone saw something on the news news and that might as well have been you, and it's like, well, dude, that wasn't me, dude, um, and but I understand this is your only interaction and you know kind of it goes to.

Speaker 1: 1:03:30

You know also people making promises that they shouldn't be making and saying things in general that they shouldn't be making. It's like if you can't deliver on something, don't, don't say that you can say something else, right, but but you know, if you start making promises to people or set, or set unreasonable expectations for them or yourselves or whatever, and you don't meet those, then that's all they see. That's all they know. Like it doesn't matter how hard you're working at getting that thing accomplished or or what's happening in the background. That's all they know. Like it doesn't matter how hard you're working at getting that thing accomplished or or what's happening in the background, like that's all they know at their level, and so you have to sort of speak to that, I mean, and that that can get really, really tough at it.

Speaker 1: 1:04:10

Well, especially with your job too, what you had to do is, I mean, it's obviously extremely dangerous. Um, you know, things could go South, and if they go south it means you know you could be killed, uh, or some catastrophic end to whatever mission or assignment that's happening and that affects the entire area. So it's like, but again, that sort of goes back to even the law enforcement stuff. Here you are. Next thing, you know, you're all you're on, you're on cnn. You know, that night with your video of something that occurred and no one got to see everything leading up to it, right, you just got to see what happened or the outcomes of the situation, and now that's just incredible. You know, the second third order facts can can are detrimental to that whole area.

Speaker 2: 1:04:53

Yeah, I, I agree, and I think that a lot of it too has to do with folks confusing a promise and a guarantee, and you really only get one chance to screw that up, because at the beginning a promise is a guarantee, always Like if you promise me something and I trust you, I'm going to believe in you, and now it's a guarantee. You told me that you'd have that to me by Tuesday. Well, when Wednesday comes and I still don't have it, you never again will hold a guarantee with your promise. Your promise is just a promise and it doesn't mean much to me. But if I can keep it, so that you know when I promise you something, it's guaranteed to happen. So, for better or worse, I think making a promise has become too easy for a lot of folks, so they make them willy nilly at random, not understanding that to the people they're telling it to, it's a guarantee, and so when it doesn't happen, uh, your promises kind of don't mean shit anymore. So you're kind of out of the game and you've done it to yourself yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:06:10

so one of one of the things you you brought up and I know we kind of talked extensively, I guess, on it um, you know you, we all can bitch and complain about stuff in a sense, and like you're you, you and I've had similar experiences where it's like, you know, like you said, okay, that's great, but that's not how things are done anymore, or what value does this have? I need to know what. I had. I had stuff, especially the military too, and you get this really frustration of like, yeah, but that's not working or that doesn't work here, can we try something else? Can we do this? And you get a lot of pushback from that. And so, because there's just like these organizational sort of norms that are hard to get past sometimes, because one of the because when I I re read some some stuff from from a while back I know you had an article in the new york times and everything, and if you're listening up I'll put the links in the, in the details.

Speaker 1: 1:07:04

But, like you know, one of the things that after your book came out, um, some they I guess the agency said something about it, you know, and you, even though you had to go submit it and they have to go through everything, and you know that's where there's a lot of black lines in that book, uh, that have redacted stuff. But it actually reminded me and someone we know, probably know mutually Um, well, I'm not gonna say their name on here, but even said something to me about you one time and I've kind of heard this said about me in a similar way, but they said me in a similar way. But they said, um, you know, with age and greater maturity, mr laux at one point, uh, um, it, or at one point might have a different perspective on his time at the agency. And I know exactly like I've had such a similar thing said to me before. It's like, well, you know, you haven't really been around much and you got to understand there's other things at play. It's like, no, I, I, I get that this isn't about me. I understand there's other things at play, but what, why? Why are we doing this? Like I know how to go do all this stuff, but like, what, what is sort of this? Why behind all of these things?

Speaker 1: 1:08:15

And I used to get really frustrated when someone couldn't explain that to me or they couldn't articulate it. They're like, oh, you'll understand eventually. It's like, well, if you can't fucking tell me, then do you not know? And that's fine. If you don't, you can just say I don't know, this is how we've always done it. Okay, that's, that's fine.

Speaker 1: 1:08:33

There's like that's, that's an answer, right, but you're showing what problem is when you say something like that. You're showing like fuck, I don't know, maybe there is a better way, but we don't want to do that. Sometimes, right, as humans, right, we don't want to put in the extra effort and people justify it in different ways, like you said. Like, well, I know, if I stick to the plan, if I stick to this, I'll get promoted. I know I'll continue with my career and I've got a family and I've got this. And it's like look, I get that.

Speaker 1: 1:09:02

No one's asking you to say F the system, burn it down, man, you know what I mean. No one's trying to get rid of all of that great work you did. It's evolved, it's changed. So how do we take these lessons learned, going forward in a sense, but we don't like get to that level and I've had that before. So what is your experience? Because you actually you said it earlier in the show people don't realize that too. It's like you know, the CIA is still a government agency. There's still a bureaucracy, there's still an HR department, there's still I mean you know there's, like it still has.

Speaker 1: 1:09:37

You know, every other function, function. You know normal administrative, bureaucratic stuff that I don't care if you're at a 50 person police agency, you have some of those same things there. And so I I'm, I'm curious, kind of like your, your take on that, because now it has been you know some time since you wrote the book and probably time to reflect, and you've been doing other stuff which, oh, oh yeah, if I had to be doing your, your Netflix stuff with aliens, I gotta, I gotta ask you about that in a minute here. But but, uh, um, but you know, what do you do? What, looking back now, like, what are your thoughts on that?

Speaker 2: 1:10:22

And when someone else or whatever, like, what do you? What do you think now, looking back? Well, uh, what you're talking about, the comment that the agency made to the new york times, believe it or not, was actually beneficial to me, um, and not from what they said, just that they said anything at all, because, um, their policy is nothing. They don't have a conference room, by the way, you know. Like there is no daily brief from the cia, like that does not happen. They just don't acknowledge you and they, those redactions were made by their hands and everyone knows that, but they don't admit to it. And they give you the paragraph to put at the beginning that says you know, we have nothing to do with this book, these are this author's opinion, so on. So I already had that. But the comment that they made about, you know, with age will bring wisdom, essentially is what they're saying, and he'll understand what time is. What they were saying, uh, I think, was probably meant as a dig at the time, but what they maybe didn't realize was that it was extremely helpful, because after they said that to the ns of the world and to the Fox News of the world, you just confirmed that this guy used to be a spy. Because now you're directly using his name and you're saying Mr Lauchs will understand what he used to do with time because he did it. So like I didn't even get that until the New York Times journalist told me he's like oh man, this is awesome. He, like I didn't even get that until the New York Times journalist told me he's like, oh man, this is awesome. He's like they just, this is the first time ever. You know there's been CIA officers who have written books mostly analysts, that's fine with this with my editor and the publisher on how we confirm what you're saying is even true or not, and my response was always well, look at the black lines and he's like, yeah, but the public doesn't know that. You didn't just do that yourself. Like they have no clue. You could have just did that to look cool and, you know, pursue this.

Speaker 2: 1:12:35

So when they took the opportunity to personally take a strike at me for what I had done whether I agree with what they said or not it did help to validate me. So I'll say that, as far as what I thought about it yeah, I don't know that it was necessarily time in grade, because I did leave. I think it was just time in general of getting away from something and, yeah, doing something else and then returning to it and looking at it and seeing things differently. You know, seeing things from not the guy with a thousand ideas on how to fix a war. Now. I'm a guy who's like is is bubbins out of cat food, yet I should probably yeah, probably get another house's water, probably get on walmartcom later. You know, that's like the series of my thoughts in a day. So now if you bring up Syria or you bring up Afghanistan, I'm like, oh boy, okay, let's think about that and look at it. And I do think differently about some things, but it doesn't take away how I felt at the time and I still stand by everything I said in the book.

Speaker 2: 1:14:02

And for those that didn't like it and thought I was too young and too much of a brat, those are the same individuals I found who complained the most about me talking about my relationships. They hate it. And to me, that was the most important part of what I was writing about to begin with, because, again, we're all humans and we all do that and we all find significant others because we want to. We all want to, no matter who it is, no matter who your spouse or significant other is, I don't care, but we all want someone, and so dealing with probably what may be life's most important thing to do or care about a significant other, uh is going to play a huge role in any author's mind. So why not write about it? And that shit was really happening to me and so I thought it was was worth putting that out there. Hey, you think it's cool and you're James Bond and you bang every hot chick that's ever walked by. No, most of us do have wives and kids or girlfriends or boyfriends, and that's pretty difficult. That's a whole other topic we could spend 10 hours on right now, I'm sure all three of us.

Speaker 2: 1:15:18

Okay, so I'll leave alone but the premise of what they were saying in that remark I think it was more. Just the guy that was given the guidance to say something at all to the New York times, because that's an important newspaper uh had to say something and it couldn't be good, could not be congratulatory like. We wish him the best. They had to do something and so that came out. But looking back at that statement alone now, here, 10 years later, I think about that differently. It's not a dig. They were right. I think about that differently. You know it's not a dig. They were right.

Speaker 2: 1:16:03

He will think about these things differently, but it doesn't change how I felt at the time and that is what's most important, because I was the one with my hand on the lever at that time.

Speaker 2: 1:16:16

So it doesn't matter what I think now and it doesn't matter what somebody from 1973 thought when I had my hand on the lever in 2011. It mattered what I thought right then and there, and that's what I'm telling you about in the book what I thought right there at that second. Do I push that button? So that is really critical to understand. That is why I thought that way. So that is really critical to understand. That is why I thought that way and that's why I did what I did. Now, looking back, maybe I was wrong and a lot of the things that I did, or maybe it didn't go as well as I thought when I wrote about it. Hey, we got the ID guy. Now I kind of look at it like, yeah, so what? That was just a good dude made for a good story and it was a good story. So you know, uh, yeah, I, I don't know.

Speaker 3: 1:17:06

I guess, as they say, when the facts change, I hope my opinions change so that's science by the way and to go back into science, on you two guys again, because I'll call you chuckleheads now. You guys forget what a small elite band of people you belong to. Most people are born and raised and die within a couple of blocks of their ancestral home. Most people never get out of the country. Most people never have the type of opportunities that you do or join the military or were in combat. So when you look back on it and this is just science when you look back on things you never at that time said one day I'm going to be the director of the CIA, I'm going to stay in the CIA for 38 years and retire from this position and I'm going to have a desk in the D ring of the Pentagon. Brian never thought I'm going to be command sergeant major of the Marine Corps and I'm going to retire with full benefits. Out of this you didn't, because you were fucking booting doors and ramming cars and you were having a great time doing it and it was so unique that nobody you knew was into that shit. And the first time you got a taste of it it was like fucking sucking the fentanyl. You could not stay off of that pipe after that and we were all there and that's why we all went back, and it is different now, but I loved your appraisal of it, doug, because you are different and you weren't the same person, and so somebody else, without being in your shoes. And, brian, here's our argument again if they didn't walk in your shoes and they didn't have your experiences, they should fucking uh, uh, hear mouth in German. They should hold their mouth and and uh, stay in their own lane, because you did something that without that something that you did, brian, the same way, the world would be a vastly different place. Okay, and so that little thing that you think back on now was a huge thing to the big wheel that was turning at that time. You changed lives. You met people and changed the trajectory of their lives and the direction, and that's why your book is such a powerful piece and that's why people try to bat you down.

Speaker 3: 1:19:03

Nobody watches a gosh damn movie and says you see a fucking janitor back there that's sweeping up the vomit from that kid in the cafeteria as we're watching Mean Girls. I want to be that guy. I want to be the best guy to fucking mop that floor. Nobody thinks about that, and so you guys sometimes got to slow your roll and look back and I know you are and, trust me, I'm not not belittling you in any way.

Speaker 3: 1:19:23

I'm saying you sometimes got to be proud of those things that you did do, because sometimes history is harsh and sometimes history looks back and, oh man, if we could have gone left instead of right. But you didn't know that at the time and you were operating under what unitary youire, unless otherwise directed, I'm doing these things right now. That's magic. That's why I love that fate brought you and Brian together again and that fate also brought you back to the show. The right people are listening to this, but I just wanted to make sure that you understand how profound those statements are that you're making when you replay this episode. I hope you hear that.

Speaker 1: 1:20:06

Brian, I got to hear about the alien thing. Please, I, I want to make sure that we understand that, speaking of, because you, you, you had, uh, um, you've, uh, you've done a bunch of really cool stuff. You did, uh, finding escobar's millions, I think it was called. You know, the show for discovery you created and then sold to them, basically, and then you've got, you, your, you've been on a few other things, but, um, you know, the funny thing was I, I reached out to you, like on linkedin. I was like, oh fuck, I gotta look them up. I saw on social media, and then here, and then, because I came across some youtube videos, someone sent me something. You go down a youtube rabbit hole. Then one of your video pops up. I was like, oh, shit, d shit, doug.

Speaker 1: 1:20:37

And then I'm sitting there watching this Netflix thing with with my wife and all of a sudden, hey, we're going to go talk to Doug locks. And I was like what, wait a minute. Like I fucking know that. Like, oh my God, that's Doug. And of course, my wife's like who wait? Who do you know in this, the aliens or the? And I'm like I've got. And then she's like how do you know him? Then I was like that's a long story. Uh, never mind, let's just keep watching the show. But but, uh, so you're, um, you're on this new it's. I think it's pretty. One of the hit shows on netflix right now is, uh, I forget the name of it, but it's the I. There's so many different alien ones on there. My favorite is that's my favorite is the ancient alien guy with the crazy hair and stuff.

Speaker 2: 1:21:20

But we're in it.

Speaker 1: 1:21:20

Yeah, and the big headband I love that dude, yeah, but you're on the show and they have you kind of talking to these people as sort of like vetting them in a sense, almost Like what do you think of them and what they're saying them and what they're saying and, and you know, we were talking a little bit about this on the weekend because my thing is like, look, I don't think a lot of these people are making up the stories that they're telling. It's just they don't, they didn't see or it's not what people think it is. But anyway, I'll tell us about what you're doing on the show and what your thoughts are on on the, the show in general and and aliens in general, I guess.

Speaker 2: 1:22:01

Uh well, I think it's exactly what Greg was saying just a few moments ago about most people haven't left their ancestral grounds. Perhaps is a good start. Uh, to talking about the alien show. Um, because I was brought on by production, who they know just a little bit more than like your average civilian of what espionage is, and you know they've done some background research and they've Googled your name and and things like that, so they get it to a degree. But you know, when I first came on, it was like, hey, this is what we have, so say it this way or do it this way.

Speaker 2: 1:22:46

And I was like, look, if you want me to be on the show, I'm not going to say I believe in aliens, but I also won't say I don't believe in aliens. If you want me to tell you if that guy's a liar, I will 100% do that. Or I'll tell you I kind of believe the guy, or maybe I think his story is full of shit, but he believes it. And that is what I found the most to be. And you guys see that in real life too, where you know, because you've been told something so many times, you start to believe in it yourself. And this resonated very well with me from and again, I mean no offense, uh, but there's a lot of military guys who didn't do a fucking thing who go around to the vfw and the american legion, high-siding, like you know, they saved the queen and they were in shootout after shootout after shootout it's like what were you doing? Every five minutes. You know, you guys have heard these stories to find out. The guy never left arizona and you did a two-year bid, you know. So like what, what are you even talking about? You know, but they'll start to believe in it themselves from going to places like the Legion or so on. And I love the American Legion and the VFW, but thank you for your service so many times and you're a hero. So many times People don't even know what they did, they don't know what their designation stands for and they haven't seen their DD 214.

Speaker 2: 1:24:25

And then you'll find that they just eventually start to run with the myth. You know that's been created for them on their behalf out of just generosity and kindness of Americans. You know, by and large, very much value the, the military, but it goes over the top. And then you find the person that is being congratulated or so on starts to run with it to the point where they're the one telling the story that they heard somebody else telling about them and you're like wait, wait, wait, like this guy is full of shit, like none of that actually happened.

Speaker 2: 1:25:04

And so to bring it to the alien stuff that I was doing, uh, I found that a lot of people had been telling the same story for so long that they really do believe it and I, you know, their stories are polished and I could tell, and so I never questioned whether the person was lying out of trying to get something or deceive me, or doing it out of a negative idea that they have in mind to gain something from it. Something from it. This is just the story they had always told and, like Greg was saying, they've never really left their hometown and it's the same town their grandparents were in and their grandpa believed in this story and that kind of got passed down over the generations. So now this guy's, almost at default, has to believe in the story. That's what his dad told him, his dad believed in, and that doesn't have to be about aliens. I can stretch it all the way to the taliban, you know, or okay exactly yeah, same story, it's same origin story.

Speaker 3: 1:26:14

Exactly, dog, that's brilliant, that's a great, that's a great time, it's your lineage and um.

Speaker 2: 1:26:21

so you know, because they did it that way, I have to do it that way because dad's still watching, but then by the time he passes away, I've already told my son this is the way to do it, and now he's watching. So, and, by the way, I want to outperform dad. So you see, and again it goes the same, whether it was my old job or this job seeing the original story that some of these guys were telling had not been fabricated but had been massaged into a glorious story, and each generation after made it more glorious to the point where it reached Netflix ears. That's about as glorious as you can get if you're trying to get on TV, and they got it there. And so I come in and started to realize that pretty quick that, hey, you guys can look into this scientifically, because that's the only way I see that this could be proven or disproven, that you have to use science here, not stories. I'm sorry, this is a big deal.

Speaker 2: 1:27:28

So, as far as that guy, I think he thinks he's telling the truth, but I think he's also just relating a story that's been told to him. And if he says that he personally saw it, what he said back in 1985 when he first saw it has really advanced now into 2024. And I get it Same location, same story, but a lot more details. Now why weren't there more details when you were on top of it and they've kind of faded over time? Because if you ask me stories, general stories about the agency. Somebody asked me the other day, like what do you eat every day? I'm like, did we even have a fucking cafeteria, right?

Speaker 3: 1:28:15

Yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:28:17

Yeah, yeah no no. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. I met Hayden in the cafeteria and then it all came back to me but it was like who cares, like I've forgotten about that at this time.

Speaker 3: 1:28:29

So you know, I don't know if that makes sense, but it does one way to divulge uh, uh, like I, I can bag on coppers and and uh, the, I will hear a cop testify and immediately call bullshit. Because my first question is how is it? Your fucking memory is so precise right now and this cave was two and a half years old and when you wrote it, your memory is now filling in details that weren't even in your written report that you wrote that night. And you're on there and the expository is going and it's building and stuff. And that's just the nature of humans. Nobody wants to have a shit story. Nobody wants a Rolodex of your life to come up with a fucking blank card and then all of a sudden somebody goes I guess I was nominal, you know. Nobody wants a meh. So that's you know, that's us. That's just human nature. And if you, if you take it for what it's given look, I know they saw wasn't a Sasquatch, it was a gosh damn bear, you know and if you take it from that, then we have to rationalize everything in our lives some way, and that's why we love the scientific approach.

Speaker 3: 1:29:30

Look of all the things that have come and gone in my short career, you know, six decades on the planet. Things have come and gone, but you know what? That really good stuff has stood the test of time and everybody can point back at that stuff. So I just want to be when. When they're doing the count for me it's going to be at L. I think they still do a gate thing there, though. Uh, you know, it's like studio 54 where they got a fucking you know gold bar or red thing. But when they do the accounting, I just want to make sure that I did more good than bad for somebody at some point in my life, and I think, doug, I think you can really say that I think you've done a lot of great for a lot of people and have expanded the way people look at things, and I think that's a noble effort. I think that's a great thing to look back on.

Speaker 2: 1:30:13

Yeah, thank you. I can really tell Greg, you're a club guy. I'm telling you man.

Speaker 3: 1:30:19

I'm telling you, rave guy, club guy. I'm telling you, rave guy, club guy. My latest work on written work was no Parking on the Dance Floor. That'll tell you a little bit where I get my funk from yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:30:34

Well, those, yeah, the alien shows always remind me of different stories different stories, I mean even especially from from uh, you know we had who, this uh insurgent sniper dealing with back in like this, back like 2004, iraq and you know, and the stories just grow like oh, he's like, you know, he's from chechnya and he's you know, he's jacked and he's two miles out. Yeah, and it's olympic hopeful well, we had, and they're the wall so right they made it.

Speaker 1: 1:31:03

They made a movie based on those stories but, um, they, there's a. There was one we were working greg greg was there for this one. We were in a place and these guys were uh getting hit from some rebel folks, uh from the neighboring country, where things were going on and they were sitting there going like, whoa, you, you have to understand they. They come up and they can actually um move the boulders on the mountain and they can take their shot and they can look from the secret base exactly, and they're going like how, how do you think they would do that?

Speaker 1: 1:31:34

and I'm like, okay, okay, um, okay, well, maybe that's, that's a possibility. I guess, tell you what, maybe he's a lot closer than that, I don't know. Maybe maybe he's like right over here, uh, and not up in those mountains a half a mile away into that place.

Speaker 3: 1:31:53

Maybe he's sitting in this room, brian yeah, we don't want to say that one.

Speaker 2: 1:31:59

What was the uh bradley? Was it called American Sniper?

Speaker 2: 1:32:04

Yeah, was that movie where he's a sniper. So, uh, one thing I used to get so annoyed by but now I actually secretly love it is to watch television with somebody about. Something like we used to do was watching American Sniper with a lady once. And there's this scene where Bradley Cooper which I guess they're supposed to be basing this on what Chris Kyle, the actual sniper I can promise you this did not happen. If he wrote about it in his book, I don't remember reading it, but Bradley Cooper ends up shooting the bad guy sniper in the culminating, final, final scene from like a mile and a half away. Okay, and my girlfriend's comment at the time was he did it just like he was trained right through the scope. And I yeah, I thank you for laughing and I, but you know, just then, when she said that, I was like, wait, you really think that that's like they train you to shoot the guy who's shooting at you and you shoot him through his scope.

Speaker 3: 1:33:14

Sniper schools go through a lot of scopes. Dog, they're going through a lot of scopes, but like to her.

Speaker 2: 1:33:20

That's the only way it's done. Is a sniper hunts other snipers only and shoots them from a mile and a half away because that's easy and he's obviously good because he's American and he got it just where he wanted it to right through the guys, right through the glass and everything. I bet he got glass in his eye.

Speaker 1: 1:33:43

And I'm like oh okay, so yeah, you know it's like one guy did that and after he did it, you know 50 years ago, was like oh damn, that was a total, fucking lucky shot. And everyone went from that point on, like that's how those things are when someone's like hathcock story brian dude? I well, I was remember I was telling you about.

Speaker 1: 1:34:04

Remember, dirk, our buddy Greg he took me out with some of his old timer buddies one time years ago at this pub and we're you know, they're all together, they all throw darts and they, you know, have their own darts Like, and we're sitting like, yeah, let me go warm up, do you, uh, do you ever like play darts? I was like, I was like no, uh, it's been a while. And I walk up there and three darts just my first three darts, all in the bullseye, and I'm sitting there going like, oh, how the fuck, and did I do that? And I turn around, they go.

Speaker 1: 1:34:34

I thought you said you don't play much and I was like, well, I, uh, you had a meltdown at the world championships five years ago and I haven't thrown a dart since. And they're, like, it progressively got worse after that. It was just pure luck. And I was like, uh, there we go. So. But they were all terrified, like we got to play against this guy and I was like I had to go tell my buddy Dirk. I'm like Dirk, this is going to get, uh, exponential worse from what you just saw right now. Like I, I do not. I've played darts once in my life.

Speaker 3: 1:35:02

I'm sitting with Chuck Mawinney and Carlos Hathcock at a place called Domino Farms and we were talking about this exact topic. And Hathcock talks about a time in Vietnam where he shot a .50 cal and broke the fork on a bicycle that the local guy that they were targeting. So he fell down on the ground and had a scramble for it and he goes. You know, I was aiming for his head the entire time and we laughed for 30 minutes because it was like, well, you're lucky, you got it in the grid square. And he's like yeah, I know. And how many times do we think back on something that we did that's now legendary, that people still talk about? And you're thinking if they only knew, if they only knew how much luck and how much light was in somebody's eyes during that recollection that's great.

Speaker 2: 1:35:44

Yeah, when the myth becomes the legend, print the legend, that's it, yeah yeah, well, hey, you got to tell your folks at netflix.

Speaker 3: 1:35:52

You got to tell them that, uh, that I'm an expert on aliens, uh, uh, and so I would love to be on that show one time, because I will be the hair thing exactly alien. Uh, conception, oh my gosh, we'll do that one I was impregnated by an alien. I'm ready. That's my testify to that.

Speaker 1: 1:36:14

That's so funny, god well, man, um, dude, I I appreciate you, you coming on and talking about the stuff and I know you don't do a lot of the podcasts and stuff and I wasn't even totally sure on what we ended up talking about on here. I wanted to get you on to get your perspective because I respect it and appreciate it a lot. And I think you broke contact when the book printed is what it was right. I remember you sent me a text or something like that and then like it was nothing and then you know, you kind of broke contact with everyone, which I get, you know you had to kind of I'm assuming there's, there's a lot of blowback from, from this stuff. That that's, you know, some of it expected, some of it unexpected, some things you like I'm sure you're like like, yeah, I figured this would happen or some. It's like you know, holy shit, I didn't realize, you know this would happen.

Speaker 1: 1:37:06

So sharing that stuff is is really, it's really cool. It takes a lot and it's a lot more than than people think sometimes. And you know, I just just appreciate you coming on, man, and sharing some of the stuff, because I'm a big fan of of doug and we always had an insane time together, uh, uh, hanging out, and so, um, it was good to reconnect, man, and so I'd love to uh, the, you know we gotta, we gotta hang out sometime or forever in the same area. But, um, you know, man, I just, I really do appreciate you coming on the show and I'll, I'll, I know it's the perfect book for Christmas.

Speaker 3: 1:37:41

Think about it.

Speaker 1: 1:37:43

There we go.

Speaker 2: 1:37:45

There we go.

Speaker 1: 1:37:46

Yeah, it is.

Speaker 2: 1:37:48

Well, if I will say this, then as far as, like, what you're doing and what your podcast is all about, I think you know somebody might watch this and say these three were just rambling the whole time. You know they were just talkingambling the whole time. You know they were just talking about the good old days or so on. But I think other people may look at it and see the format and realize I'm going to talk to this guy, brian, in 10 years and this is the first time I'm ever meeting Greg and look how easy this was and how comfortable we all were and we're all kind of goofing around and we're like having fun and we're talking and we're just being open and honest with each other.

Speaker 2: 1:38:31

And to use that is because, brian, you and I established that trust very early on. You know, between you and I it was the idea of me you same same, I don't need to. Of me you same same, I don't need to lie to this guy, he doesn't need to lie to me. I know he's been there, done that, so have I great. Now let's both just be humans together and so you know, talk to people for the weekend.

Speaker 2: 1:38:58

You know that was for an hour, great, but then here it's just like we just taught a course two days ago. It seems like yeah and with you guys say you know, heard stories about you and everything um, and what you were up to. And now here we are meeting for the first time. I'm like, yeah, I've known this guy for 15 years.

Speaker 3: 1:39:17

Yeah, well doug I hope I'm not as big as a dick as they were leading you on to believe so because it's a pleasure meeting you, okay, I knew it was one of those. There we go. That's so funny. That's so funny. Let's get it right, so true.

Speaker 1: 1:39:32

Yeah, yeah, man, no, it's. It's funny. I was like that time that that what I forget where we were at and all of a sudden, a lot in the morning doing some stupid workout. And then like you're coming walking out with some other dude, I'm like, is that like what? Is this dude like following me? Wait a minute. And then you're probably like is this dude following me?

Speaker 2: 1:39:51

like what's going on here? Yeah, I wasn't gonna tell that story, but uh yeah, marion's a fan boy.

Speaker 3: 1:39:57

you can say that I've never met anybody that marion likes. So actually meeting you, dog, and knowing that you've carried down a relationship for 10 years honest to God, because he does not it's just like with Shelly. It's like what do you think of this guy? And then Shelly actually looked at your bio and checked out the book and everything and Shelly was like oh, it seems like it's going to be a great guest and it's been a blast. But, like Brian, brian's always like nah, nah, lukewarm, and then with this he's like doug lot, doug lot, we're gonna.

Speaker 1: 1:40:27

so I'm very happy to finally meet you and uh, yeah, again, you know your, your story is an easy one to tell. It's a great one. I and I know that's me because like I'm, like you know it, I don't, I don't. I don't get along with a lot of people. I tolerate everyone pretty much, but like I, I don't get along or or create friends with a lot of people or want to have a drink with most people. I'm like, hey, I'm going to go walk around the city by myself for the next three hours or something If we have free time, correct.

Speaker 3: 1:40:55

Yeah, it's so funny.

Speaker 2: 1:40:57

Because you brought up the story. It didn't help that I was getting in the car at 7 am with a colleague and I left and both of our first thoughts were who the fuck is that guy? You're in the goddamn parking lot of like a shitty hotel doing calisthenics and I'm like this guy looks like somebody I know who stretches like that. And I got out of the car and I was like there's no way.

Speaker 3: 1:41:27

And you're like hey man, what's going?

Speaker 2: 1:41:29

on.

Speaker 3: 1:41:30

Remarkably, almost exactly how I hook up at furry conventions. You know, I know somebody that stretches like that. No, that was Marin. We would be checking into some crappy hotel and I see one guy doing one-arm pull-ups with his fingertips and somebody looks at it and goes, that looks like Marin. It is Marin. There's never been a time that somebody said it looks like Marin and it wasn't Marin.

Speaker 2: 1:41:52

So true.

Speaker 3: 1:41:54

So true. Well it's easy when you're 5'1 and you weigh 90 pounds. That's what I'm saying.

Speaker 1: 1:42:04

It's a little harder when I'm I'm just saying I'm a solid five three.

Speaker 3: 1:42:07

This is so true. The Christmas card is going around, brian, yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:42:12

Well, yeah, man, I, I, I appreciate it, I, you know, and I thought it'd be cool to for some of our listeners that that folks that listen to like every episode so they kind of get like a little inside, a little behind the scenes of us could be. We sort of stay on more of like a specific topic and, yeah, we bring in our stories and stuff, but it's not really like you know old home week with someone that we knew from from from back in the day. So it's fun to catch up, dude. But uh, yeah, man, I really really appreciate any anything else you got. They're working on coming up any other you can be on any more tv shows where I can point people and say, hey, I know that guy hey, I'm doing that next season with him.

Speaker 1: 1:42:47

Uh, yeah, I haven't gotten there yet, but eventually the story is going to be? Will they actually ask me to uh, but uh?

Speaker 2: 1:42:57

yeah, I had to decline. He's not doing so well, so I gave that to him. Uh, yeah, I don't know, it's the holidays right now, so you know the entertainment industry is asleep, so I have no idea what's going on in that regard. Uh, so what I'm going to do next really is I've just kind of been sitting around for the past month, so when you reached out and want to do this, I was like, yes, that does sound good Getting up before noon. Thank you for saying that earlier. I mean, I could have jumped on the fact that we're both fans of mean girls, greg, but oh yeah.

Speaker 2: 1:43:41

I let slide too, even though I could have did an hour on that.

Speaker 1: 1:43:45

Yeah, I bring it up way too many times in class because it's one of my favorite movies and I can tell the whole entire cafeteria scene can explain human behavior. I could teach a whole course just on that cafeteria scene.

Speaker 2: 1:44:01

Just do that, see that girl Just Just do that. See that girl Just watch and do that, just do that and dress like that too all day.

Speaker 3: 1:44:11

I still do, thank you.

Speaker 2: 1:44:14

I can tell it's nice. Thank you guys, thanks for thinking of me. I'm glad I did it, but I knew that this would go well, so thanks for doing exactly what I thought you would do.

Speaker 3: 1:44:33

Well, Doug, I think it was an absolute blast from my side and I want to make sure that our paths cross again, because it was a lot of fun talking to you. Like I said before, we started recording, we probably chewed a bunch of the same territory and run into the same people, so it was just a pleasure finally putting a face to the name and hearing your story. So it's been a blast for me and I'm glad you and Brian allowed me in. Thanks.

Speaker 1: 1:44:58

Well, I appreciate it, man. Thanks everyone for tuning in. Of course, there's always more on the Patreon site and reach out if you have any questions. Folks, and don't forget that training changes behavior.